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millbank
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"apparently protesting students have just started smashing windows at millbank
its only 1:30pm
they must be french students,all ours are still in bed  "
oi.... I use to get up for this morning I'll have you know!!!!
anyway... its a wednesday.. its sports afternoon!!!!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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can't condone the fact that some of those protesting are throwing objects at the police, but i do understand why they are doing it and good on them
this coalition doesn't seem to be making very many fans, but some of the changes they are trying to implement seem to exclude those that need the most help.
we've moved away from a government that seemed to focus on education into one that seems to put it on the bottom of the list of priorities and wheeling in decades dead policies that herald back to thatchers days where further education can only be accessed by those that can afford it
i recognise there is a deficit to be plugged, but i'm not convinced that the cuts they've proposed will safeguard the future of this country |
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I actually think that too many people go to University or College now - some of the courses are ridiculous and I think that apprenticeships should be more widely available - putting up the fees will prevent some from going but if they are truly gifted and would really benefit from going then scholarships should be given. Z |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
if we had had to pay fees in my day there is no way i of my family could have afforded to go... that would have been the blunt truth........
I am glad as many as 50,000 students have turned up.... and if i was a lib dem mp I'd be looking at that and worrying
I think there vote will absolutely shatter with the backlash going towards labour... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think that too many people go to University or College now - some of the courses are ridiculous and I think that apprenticeships should be more widely available - putting up the fees will prevent some from going but if they are truly gifted and would really benefit from going then scholarships should be given. Z"
how can too many people receive an education? anyone should be entitled.
scholarships are already hard stretched and the competition is fierce...what you propose is that anyone rich and thick deserves an education as they can afford it, but anyone poor and intelligent may not get one unless they can prove to be proven geniuses?!
not sure how that safeguards our future? |
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Everyone needs an education - not everyone needs further education - I agree that thickheads could pay their way in but also think that too many go who would be better off in an apprenticeship learning a trade - Z |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Everyone needs an education - not everyone needs further education - I agree that thickheads could pay their way in but also think that too many go who would be better off in an apprenticeship learning a trade - Z"
which is why we have senior schools that are now recognised as centres of excellent or techs...to identify those that require apprenticeships as opposed to academic training...I consider this to be the best of all the labour legacies.
you won't see everyone leaving those techs looking for uni as they will have learnt a trade within their schooling...two of my nephews have left schools with nvq's now.
the proposed changes to fees will see caps of £9k, treble existing fees...way above the rate of inflation and totally exclusive! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I am a final year Mature student, never been anything but a factory worker, have spent 5 years in education trying to get some where and finacially i am bankrupt, its been the hardest thing ive ever done in my life. for two years there was no funding at all, and for the last two years i have lived on 3.5k a year. and i am now 30k in debt. Thats the reality of being a student from a working class background, yet some of us still try and make it. What they have just done is to make that three times harder, they have made it impossible for working class to aspire. they have enforced the class devide in typical tory standard. But at the same time, i have to agree that this debt aint just gonna disapear, still. didnt we use the money to buy shares in profitable banks? do we eventually get dividends that will wipe out the debt??? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think that too many people go to University or College now - some of the courses are ridiculous and I think that apprenticeships should be more widely available - putting up the fees will prevent some from going but if they are truly gifted and would really benefit from going then scholarships should be given. Z"
Problem is they rarely go to the deserving, i was at college with a load of posh lazy buggers on great aprentaships with good wages and prospects non well intellegent, infact many failed again and again, they were lazy and didnt care, and they all had high ranking daddies within the company. i hate to say it but to true |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Everyone needs an education - not everyone needs further education - I agree that thickheads could pay their way in but also think that too many go who would be better off in an apprenticeship learning a trade - Z
which is why we have senior schools that are now recognised as centres of excellent or techs...to identify those that require apprenticeships as opposed to academic training...I consider this to be the best of all the labour legacies.
you won't see everyone leaving those techs looking for uni as they will have learnt a trade within their schooling...two of my nephews have left schools with nvq's now.
the proposed changes to fees will see caps of £9k, treble existing fees...way above the rate of inflation and totally exclusive!"
great point, acadamies will help identify skills in young people and ceter theier education accordingly |
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i think that they have completely ruined the point of today. Protests ae fine although not sure how effective they are but to cause mindless criminal damage??? how is that getting their point across???
aren't they supposed to be well educated people??? can they not think of better ways to get their points across than to cause thousands maybe millions of pounds worth of damage???
idiots is what i say |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"i think that they have completely ruined the point of today. Protests ae fine although not sure how effective they are but to cause mindless criminal damage??? how is that getting their point across???
aren't they supposed to be well educated people??? can they not think of better ways to get their points across than to cause thousands maybe millions of pounds worth of damage???
idiots is what i say"
the problem is that there were 50,000 people there who were perfectly well behaved... but it only takes less than a hundred... or other groups of people altogether to ruin it...
I bet most of the people who did the damage were probably anarchists not students.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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people knock the french but lets face it we get laws we dont like.cutbacks which hurt us and not the people who created this financial mess and we still carry on handing over more money.
as soon as the french people dont like something they go out onto the streets and show it with anger.
if we did that more often then we wouldnt be fucked over so much.
we deserve everything we get because people here are all talk and no action.
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"i think that they have completely ruined the point of today. Protests ae fine although not sure how effective they are but to cause mindless criminal damage??? how is that getting their point across???
aren't they supposed to be well educated people??? can they not think of better ways to get their points across than to cause thousands maybe millions of pounds worth of damage???
idiots is what i say
the problem is that there were 50,000 people there who were perfectly well behaved... but it only takes less than a hundred... or other groups of people altogether to ruin it...
I bet most of the people who did the damage were probably anarchists not students...."
to be fair i did think that maybe a lot of them were just there to cause trouble which is a shame because i bet i am not the only one who's sympathies have beenturned off after these turns of events
it is a shame that it is always the few that ruin things for the many |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"i think that they have completely ruined the point of today. Protests ae fine although not sure how effective they are but to cause mindless criminal damage??? how is that getting their point across???
aren't they supposed to be well educated people??? can they not think of better ways to get their points across than to cause thousands maybe millions of pounds worth of damage???
idiots is what i say
the problem is that there were 50,000 people there who were perfectly well behaved... but it only takes less than a hundred... or other groups of people altogether to ruin it...
I bet most of the people who did the damage were probably anarchists not students...."
The NUS spent ages organising this protest. It was hijacked by people I doubt were even students.
I realised something was amiss when I saw from my office window the helicopters over Millbank!
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"can't condone the fact that some of those protesting are throwing objects at the police, but i do understand why they are doing it and good on them
this coalition doesn't seem to be making very many fans, but some of the changes they are trying to implement seem to exclude those that need the most help.
we've moved away from a government that seemed to focus on education into one that seems to put it on the bottom of the list of priorities and wheeling in decades dead policies that herald back to thatchers days where further education can only be accessed by those that can afford it
i recognise there is a deficit to be plugged, but i'm not convinced that the cuts they've proposed will safeguard the future of this country"
I totally agree ,nearly every other country is increasing funding into higher education not cutting it ..this is just another case of political dogma from a group of people who got their education free... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"can't condone the fact that some of those protesting are throwing objects at the police, but i do understand why they are doing it and good on them
this coalition doesn't seem to be making very many fans, but some of the changes they are trying to implement seem to exclude those that need the most help.
we've moved away from a government that seemed to focus on education into one that seems to put it on the bottom of the list of priorities and wheeling in decades dead policies that herald back to thatchers days where further education can only be accessed by those that can afford it
i recognise there is a deficit to be plugged, but i'm not convinced that the cuts they've proposed will safeguard the future of this country
I totally agree ,nearly every other country is increasing funding into higher education not cutting it ..this is just another case of political dogma from a group of people who got their education free..."
I don't always agree with you politically... but 100 percent on this one  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"can't condone the fact that some of those protesting are throwing objects at the police, but i do understand why they are doing it and good on them
this coalition doesn't seem to be making very many fans, but some of the changes they are trying to implement seem to exclude those that need the most help.
we've moved away from a government that seemed to focus on education into one that seems to put it on the bottom of the list of priorities and wheeling in decades dead policies that herald back to thatchers days where further education can only be accessed by those that can afford it
i recognise there is a deficit to be plugged, but i'm not convinced that the cuts they've proposed will safeguard the future of this country
I totally agree ,nearly every other country is increasing funding into higher education not cutting it ..this is just another case of political dogma from a group of people who got their education free..."
was ok to chuck money at the banks tho |
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By *ig badMan
over a year ago
Up North :-) |
"can't condone the fact that some of those protesting are throwing objects at the police, but i do understand why they are doing it and good on them
this coalition doesn't seem to be making very many fans, but some of the changes they are trying to implement seem to exclude those that need the most help.
we've moved away from a government that seemed to focus on education into one that seems to put it on the bottom of the list of priorities and wheeling in decades dead policies that herald back to thatchers days where further education can only be accessed by those that can afford it
i recognise there is a deficit to be plugged, but i'm not convinced that the cuts they've proposed will safeguard the future of this country
I totally agree ,nearly every other country is increasing funding into higher education not cutting it ..this is just another case of political dogma from a group of people who got their education free...
was ok to chuck money at the banks tho"
It wasn't in my book and its sickening that they are once again paying out big bonuses out.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"can't condone the fact that some of those protesting are throwing objects at the police, but i do understand why they are doing it and good on them
this coalition doesn't seem to be making very many fans, but some of the changes they are trying to implement seem to exclude those that need the most help.
we've moved away from a government that seemed to focus on education into one that seems to put it on the bottom of the list of priorities and wheeling in decades dead policies that herald back to thatchers days where further education can only be accessed by those that can afford it
i recognise there is a deficit to be plugged, but i'm not convinced that the cuts they've proposed will safeguard the future of this country
I totally agree ,nearly every other country is increasing funding into higher education not cutting it ..this is just another case of political dogma from a group of people who got their education free...
was ok to chuck money at the banks tho"
I do not usually get involved in political debates on here - but education should be free and accessible to all - I really feel very passionate about that. Its about opportunities in later life as much as anything. |
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By *xccvvMan
over a year ago
Yorkshire North East |
Education is free for everyone at school and longer for those who choose to stay on, I left school at the age 15 and have worked full time to the present day, if I decide to go back to school does everyone have to pay for me ?
If you choose not to get educated don't burden everyone else, I cant afford to do a lot of things or to buy many things but I don't begrudge others who can
So if you cant afford to pay for your your education, which was free for many years, don't do it |
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By *iewMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Angus & Findhorn |
well the ones inter_iewed on TV this morning 'well they don't listen so we have to use violence'.. reminded me of spoilt sulky stupid little brats who if they don't get your way... you will scream and scream and stamp your feet till you do.
their moments of madness and little bit of notoriety will come back and bite them in the bum when they go for a job in the future......... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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its all irrelevant anyway, this is goverment doing what goverment does. if u look back over modern history we always have 10 years of spending by labour, leading to recession followed by 10 years of cutsbacks by conservatives. nothing changes  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think that too many people go to University or College now - some of the courses are ridiculous and I think that apprenticeships should be more widely available - putting up the fees will prevent some from going but if they are truly gifted and would really benefit from going then scholarships should be given. Z"
compleatly agree, there are too many over qualified people in this country and not enought grass route workers, and some of the degree courses are just barking. |
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"well the ones inter_iewed on TV this morning 'well they don't listen so we have to use violence'.. reminded me of spoilt sulky stupid little brats who if they don't get your way... you will scream and scream and stamp your feet till you do.
their moments of madness and little bit of notoriety will come back and bite them in the bum when they go for a job in the future......... "
exacly my thoughts - why should we listen to tantrums???
we need one BIIIIIGGGGGG nauthy step |
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By *umourCouple
over a year ago
Northants |
My neice is at Uni studying acting stuff, choreography and set design. All these are traditionally taught "on the job". She was offered an Apprenticeship, but turned it down! Why? Because she wanted to spend time as a student and live the student lifestyle. Also, if she had on the job training, she would have to work!
If we are going to pay for people to go to Uni, then lets at least make sure that the courses are of some benefit to the country.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The first of many demonstrations to come over the next couple of years I should think...."
I totally agree with this. It is most definitely a sign of things to come.
There are a few unfavourable policies on the boil and the streets will be over-run with protesters soon.
I found it ironic when the sky news reporter was asking why the police weren't properly prepared for yesterday, given that it isn't the forst time a protest has erupted "for instance, the Poll Tax protest"...another wonderful Conservative idea...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think that too many people go to University or College now - some of the courses are ridiculous and I think that apprenticeships should be more widely available - putting up the fees will prevent some from going but if they are truly gifted and would really benefit from going then scholarships should be given. Z
compleatly agree, there are too many over qualified people in this country and not enought grass route workers, and some of the degree courses are just barking."
can i point you to my response above to this where I said that this would inevitably change with the new techs we have replacing senior schools?
...your suggestion will mean that the working class will, once again, be identified, segregated and kept that way with no hope of improving their situation. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I caught David Cameron briefly on the tv last night during his china visit.
did i miss something or did he say something along the lines that the fee rises were actually better for foreign students that wish to study in britain because the government can use some of the money to reduce the fees for foreign students.
now i don't really have strong _iews either way regarding student fees and understand both sides but if that's true it seems a little unfair
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"My neice is at Uni studying acting stuff, choreography and set design. All these are traditionally taught "on the job". She was offered an Apprenticeship, but turned it down! Why? Because she wanted to spend time as a student and live the student lifestyle. Also, if she had on the job training, she would have to work!
If we are going to pay for people to go to Uni, then lets at least make sure that the courses are of some benefit to the country. "
Theatre earns 2.6 billion a year for this country
Film 3.5 billion sounds like they are one of the few thriving industries to me. At least someone is actually making something we can sell on |
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"I caught David Cameron briefly on the tv last night during his china visit.
did i miss something or did he say something along the lines that the fee rises were actually better for foreign students that wish to study in britain because the government can use some of the money to reduce the fees for foreign students.
now i don't really have strong _iews either way regarding student fees and understand both sides but if that's true it seems a little unfair
"
as unfair as Scottish students not having to pay any fees when English do ...and good luck to them i say  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I caught David Cameron briefly on the tv last night during his china visit.
did i miss something or did he say something along the lines that the fee rises were actually better for foreign students that wish to study in britain because the government can use some of the money to reduce the fees for foreign students.
now i don't really have strong _iews either way regarding student fees and understand both sides but if that's true it seems a little unfair
as unfair as Scottish students not having to pay any fees when English do ...and good luck to them i say "
Dave never made the distinction between english and scottish so neither did i. I asked a question about what he had said not what he didn't say, simple really
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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University is NOT solely for the rich and thick, as it is also not to be widely available to anyone who simply wants to go. An education sosts money, usually parent's money, and if someone isn't bright enough to complete a degree course then I for one would be mightily pissed off about it if my child dropped out after two years and £18k of my money down the swannee.
The rich can afford to pack their offspring off to Uni for a few years while they sort out what they want to do with their lives, regardless od whether they complete the course or not. Under the old system these rich kids would have taken up a state funded place that a poorer kid could have had, now he/she will have to cough up some hard earned daddy money for that same place.
For this country to run smoothly we need workers as well as bosses and for those who are not as successful at school the workplace is the avenue for them. Whether that is via an apprenticeship or straight into full time employment depends upon how well they did in their GCSE's. They are as essential to the manufacturing, servicing, industrial sectors as bright kids are to the future of banking, science, medicine and innovation. There is a place for everyone in this world and sometimes one needs to face up to the fact that you can't have something simply because you want it.
The new tuition fees will hit me hard as I have a 13y/o who will be going to Uni in five years time (yes, she's bright enough and she's top of her year alongside another boy), and I have a young son who will hopefully be going to Uni in 17 years time. The new fees will make a serious dent in our finances and we probably won't be able to absorb the full cost of it.
The students demonstrating about uni fees in London yesterday have forgotten what it takes to go to Uni and who has to pay for it. It is not down to someone in their 50s with grown up children already out in the workplace to fund someone else's kid through higher education. What benefit does that taxpayer get from that?
Those that go to Uni should pay for it. That's how it works in the States and has been so for many years now.
The question most parent's should be asking themselves now (and without rose tinted glasses on) is: Is my child clever enough to complete a degree successfully?
The answer to that question should determine whether you fund your child through Uni, or not.
As for the 'wreckers' sent in by Class War (a well known anarchist group), they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law permits and sent to jail for the maximum tarrif allowed. |
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It always seems when the Cons are in power, even this time in cahoots with I want to be famous Nick Clegg , there seems to be riots on the horizon, inner city riots of the 80s, poll tax, miners strike,and I have a funny feeling many more are in the pipeline with what this county will go through in the coming years, yes Nick you will be famous, for destroying this adopted country of ours |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It always seems when the Cons are in power, even this time in cahoots with I want to be famous Nick Clegg , there seems to be riots on the horizon, inner city riots of the 80s, poll tax, miners strike,and I have a funny feeling many more are in the pipeline with what this county will go through in the coming years, yes Nick you will be famous, for destroying this adopted country of ours "
The typical Conservative voter would never resort to riots in demonstration of an unpopular policy decision, especially when the Tories are in power. Labour thugs will use whatever vehicle suits their purposes to stir up unrest during a Tory government - but they'd never do it when a Labour govt is in power.
And therein lies the paradox. |
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"It always seems when the Cons are in power, even this time in cahoots with I want to be famous Nick Clegg , there seems to be riots on the horizon, inner city riots of the 80s, poll tax, miners strike,and I have a funny feeling many more are in the pipeline with what this county will go through in the coming years, yes Nick you will be famous, for destroying this adopted country of ours
The typical Conservative voter would never resort to riots in demonstration of an unpopular policy decision, especially when the Tories are in power. Labour thugs will use whatever vehicle suits their purposes to stir up unrest during a Tory government - but they'd never do it when a Labour govt is in power.
And therein lies the paradox."
So what was the agro over the anti hunting bill about then ,when they invaded parliament and grabbed the mace...your not suggesting they were labour agitators surely.
Regarding the concept that people should obly go to uni if they do well on there Gcse's - what about Life long learning.people are often not ready for uni when young as they are not mature enough,it has nothing to do with Gcse's
One of the encouraging developments in recent years has been the growth of lifelong learning. Increasingly, students are taking up courses at every stage of life. What was once seen as the preserve of the young is now rightfully an arena for all. Mature students decide to study for many different reasons, including improved job prospects, making a fresh start or purely for interest in their subject.
I find it funny when the govt of the day trot out increased incomes over a lifetime as part of the justification for breaking "clearcut cant run away or spin it pre-election pledges" (in fact many lib mps only got elected because of that pledge) they now act as if mature students do not exist and turn away when asked about their pledges.
I think if you make decisions on people futures at age 15 and stream them based on there academic achievment at that point ,as a nation we will miss out on a lot of very talented late developers,whoe talents will never surface.
eg:Einstein who was considered Slow at school hardly spoke until 9 years old and in fact failed many of the university entrance exams.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"It always seems when the Cons are in power, even this time in cahoots with I want to be famous Nick Clegg , there seems to be riots on the horizon, inner city riots of the 80s, poll tax, miners strike,and I have a funny feeling many more are in the pipeline with what this county will go through in the coming years, yes Nick you will be famous, for destroying this adopted country of ours
The typical Conservative voter would never resort to riots in demonstration of an unpopular policy decision, especially when the Tories are in power. Labour thugs will use whatever vehicle suits their purposes to stir up unrest during a Tory government - but they'd never do it when a Labour govt is in power.
And therein lies the paradox.
So what was the agro over the anti hunting bill about then ,when they invaded parliament and grabbed the mace...your not suggesting they were labour agitators surely.
Regarding the concept that people should obly go to uni if they do well on there Gcse's - what about Life long learning.people are often not ready for uni when young as they are not mature enough,it has nothing to do with Gcse's
One of the encouraging developments in recent years has been the growth of lifelong learning. Increasingly, students are taking up courses at every stage of life. What was once seen as the preserve of the young is now rightfully an arena for all. Mature students decide to study for many different reasons, including improved job prospects, making a fresh start or purely for interest in their subject.
I find it funny when the govt of the day trot out increased incomes over a lifetime as part of the justification for breaking "clearcut cant run away or spin it pre-election pledges" (in fact many lib mps only got elected because of that pledge) they now act as if mature students do not exist and turn away when asked about their pledges.
I think if you make decisions on people futures at age 15 and stream them based on there academic achievment at that point ,as a nation we will miss out on a lot of very talented late developers,whoe talents will never surface.
eg:Einstein who was considered Slow at school hardly spoke until 9 years old and in fact failed many of the university entrance exams.
"
its all ok now:
apparently the real reason for the riots was the abolition of the right to buy a single pot noodle with a post dated cheque possibly |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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PS and to add to PD's post : Einstein was dyslexic, and had to repeat two school years (as is customary in some European countries) for not reaching the set standards. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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First and foremost, let us dispel the most popular, most beloved rumor about Einstein of all. He did not fail maths. He got top grades in maths and science all of his life. He also didn't fall out of school -- though he did abruptly leave his secondary school when his family moved to Italy during his final year. But he did earn his diploma elsewhere and then went on to and graduated from college
(albeit with only fair grades, and he was known to skip a lot of classes. . . )
To be honest, however, for a high-end theoretical physicist, Einstein's math was subpar. His earlier papers -- while elegant, brief, and brilliant -- often contain simple errors. However, it must be remembered the Einstein was not balancing a checkbook, he was balancing the forces of gravity and the speed of light. The level of mathematics he was doing is far beyond two-plus-two. And so it's more correct to say that Einstein wasn't a mathematician -- and that he needed their help quite often to make sure his theories did pan out in the end. |
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"First and foremost, let us dispel the most popular, most beloved rumor about Einstein of all. He did not fail maths. He got top grades in maths and science all of his life. He also didn't fall out of school -- though he did abruptly leave his secondary school when his family moved to Italy during his final year. But he did earn his diploma elsewhere and then went on to and graduated from college
(albeit with only fair grades, and he was known to skip a lot of classes. . . )
To be honest, however, for a high-end theoretical physicist, Einstein's math was subpar. His earlier papers -- while elegant, brief, and brilliant -- often contain simple errors. However, it must be remembered the Einstein was not balancing a checkbook, he was balancing the forces of gravity and the speed of light. The level of mathematics he was doing is far beyond two-plus-two. And so it's more correct to say that Einstein wasn't a mathematician -- and that he needed their help quite often to make sure his theories did pan out in the end."
well i did not mention any of the matters you have raised ,i take your word for the things you have said
but he was a late developer in every sense as are many others. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"My neice is at Uni studying acting stuff, choreography and set design. All these are traditionally taught "on the job". She was offered an Apprenticeship, but turned it down! Why? Because she wanted to spend time as a student and live the student lifestyle. Also, if she had on the job training, she would have to work!
If we are going to pay for people to go to Uni, then lets at least make sure that the courses are of some benefit to the country.
Theatre earns 2.6 billion a year for this country
Film 3.5 billion sounds like they are one of the few thriving industries to me. At least someone is actually making something we can sell on "
actually on this point... one of the infamous "quango's" was the film council.... and for every pound of it's existance spent it actually made 6 pounds back in profiles awareness and profiles back into the ecomony...
so not all were bad.. and it is making profits back for the greater good... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It always seems when the Cons are in power, even this time in cahoots with I want to be famous Nick Clegg , there seems to be riots on the horizon, inner city riots of the 80s, poll tax, miners strike,and I have a funny feeling many more are in the pipeline with what this county will go through in the coming years, yes Nick you will be famous, for destroying this adopted country of ours
The typical Conservative voter would never resort to riots in demonstration of an unpopular policy decision, especially when the Tories are in power. Labour thugs will use whatever vehicle suits their purposes to stir up unrest during a Tory government - but they'd never do it when a Labour govt is in power.
And therein lies the paradox.
So what was the agro over the anti hunting bill about then ,when they invaded parliament and grabbed the mace...your not suggesting they were labour agitators surely.
Regarding the concept that people should obly go to uni if they do well on there Gcse's - what about Life long learning.people are often not ready for uni when young as they are not mature enough,it has nothing to do with Gcse's
One of the encouraging developments in recent years has been the growth of lifelong learning. Increasingly, students are taking up courses at every stage of life. What was once seen as the preserve of the young is now rightfully an arena for all. Mature students decide to study for many different reasons, including improved job prospects, making a fresh start or purely for interest in their subject.
I find it funny when the govt of the day trot out increased incomes over a lifetime as part of the justification for breaking "clearcut cant run away or spin it pre-election pledges" (in fact many lib mps only got elected because of that pledge) they now act as if mature students do not exist and turn away when asked about their pledges.
I think if you make decisions on people futures at age 15 and stream them based on there academic achievment at that point ,as a nation we will miss out on a lot of very talented late developers,whoe talents will never surface.
eg:Einstein who was considered Slow at school hardly spoke until 9 years old and in fact failed many of the university entrance exams.
"
Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
It is a completely different scenario for mature students, who usually have a house to pay for, kids to provide for etc etc. And they have their course fees on top of that. State funded? In some cases probably, in most, probably not.
But the argument remains the same regardless: They will benefit the most rom investing in their own future. Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The many myths about Einstein... not all above is factually correct btw... BUT
Bottom line, and back to the OP, the thread is about the right/ privilege to free education. A basic human right in my _iew and one without which mankind is doomed. Maybe this sounds dramatic - but it is also one of man's most primal need. (Maslow et al) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My neice is at Uni studying acting stuff, choreography and set design. All these are traditionally taught "on the job". She was offered an Apprenticeship, but turned it down! Why? Because she wanted to spend time as a student and live the student lifestyle. Also, if she had on the job training, she would have to work!
If we are going to pay for people to go to Uni, then lets at least make sure that the courses are of some benefit to the country.
Theatre earns 2.6 billion a year for this country
Film 3.5 billion sounds like they are one of the few thriving industries to me. At least someone is actually making something we can sell on
actually on this point... one of the infamous "quango's" was the film council.... and for every pound of it's existance spent it actually made 6 pounds back in profiles awareness and profiles back into the ecomony...
so not all were bad.. and it is making profits back for the greater good... "
Didn't the British Film Council receive £160m of lottery funding and have only received £80m back? This is in today's news on bbc.co.uk, but having said that, can anything the Beeb put out these days be free from leftist propoganda? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
But the argument remains the same regardless: They will benefit the most rom investing in their own future. Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it."
WHo is "they" by the way? And what guranatees are there of this 40k job?
I dont quite understand ? Could you elaborate please, Wishy? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?"
Yes, yes they do. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The many myths about Einstein... not all above is factually correct btw... BUT
Bottom line, and back to the OP, the thread is about the right/ privilege to free education. A basic human right in my _iew and one without which mankind is doomed. Maybe this sounds dramatic - but it is also one of man's most primal need. (Maslow et al)"
A right to learn how to read & write, sure, I'd agree with that, but certainly not a right to further education. The state is obliged to give everyone the basic tools with which to improve one's lot but it's then down to the individual to put those tools to work. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
Those that go to Uni should pay for it. That's how it works in the States and has been so for many years now.
"
the problem is always going to be that rightly or wrongly people from poorer background who are gifted do fall thru the system because they cannot find the money to go.... regardless of scholarships and burarises that are given out....
............ however from someone who lived in states and went to university in the states, I can tell you they actually wish they could have a system more like ours...... trust me!!!
if this kind of fees were around when I was going thru uni there is no way I would have been able to go, because I know that I or my family wouldn't have been able to afford it.... those are the bare truths...
so wishy.. why should we are uni students be able to go to uni and improve ourselves for free.... yet people 10 years behind us have to pay £3,000 a year.... and those 5 years behind them have to find £9,000 a year....
it should be free and to lump it on those behind is unfair for them to have to pay for others mistakes.....
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
But the argument remains the same regardless: They will benefit the most rom investing in their own future. Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it.
WHo is "they" by the way? And what guranatees are there of this 40k job?
I dont quite understand ? Could you elaborate please, Wishy? "
'they' - the students themselves.
And no, there are no guarantees in life but if someone has invested £27k in their own future they'd be pretty bloody stupid to go and then work in McDonalds don't you think? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
But the argument remains the same regardless: They will benefit the most rom investing in their own future. Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it.
WHo is "they" by the way? And what guranatees are there of this 40k job?
I dont quite understand ? Could you elaborate please, Wishy?
'they' - the students themselves.
And no, there are no guarantees in life but if someone has invested £27k in their own future they'd be pretty bloody stupid to go and then work in McDonalds don't you think?"
Sadly a reality though, one I can quote many exmaples for from amongst friends and even family. Highly qualified intelligent people who have in theory everything to get that 40 k job (or whatever it should be) and yet... they do not. What is the answer I wonder? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
Yes, yes they do. "
And their kids move in with them too I suppose?
I can understand mature single people living the student life but a married woman with three children in tow isn't going to be able to afford uni digs as well as putting a roof over her children's heads... unless she has a high earning husband, in which case she can pay for her own goddam degree. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I suppose, being realistic ... I am not advocating that all education should be free forever and a day. I believe your first education , your first degree or whatever should be... like it is in some countries on the continent. In my home country term fees are around £150 per term! That is fair I think. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Those that go to Uni should pay for it. That's how it works in the States and has been so for many years now.
the problem is always going to be that rightly or wrongly people from poorer background who are gifted do fall thru the system because they cannot find the money to go.... regardless of scholarships and burarises that are given out....
............ however from someone who lived in states and went to university in the states, I can tell you they actually wish they could have a system more like ours...... trust me!!!
if this kind of fees were around when I was going thru uni there is no way I would have been able to go, because I know that I or my family wouldn't have been able to afford it.... those are the bare truths...
so wishy.. why should we are uni students be able to go to uni and improve ourselves for free.... yet people 10 years behind us have to pay £3,000 a year.... and those 5 years behind them have to find £9,000 a year....
it should be free and to lump it on those behind is unfair for them to have to pay for others mistakes.....
"
And it isn't fair for someone nearing the end of their working life to pay taxes for those who haven't even started work yet to go to University. There has to be a trade of values and state funded University seems to be an expensive one-way street to me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
Yes, yes they do.
And their kids move in with them too I suppose?
I can understand mature single people living the student life but a married woman with three children in tow isn't going to be able to afford uni digs as well as putting a roof over her children's heads... unless she has a high earning husband, in which case she can pay for her own goddam degree."
Hm.... me on my own with several children (I am talking a few years back now) and managing to not only fund my own (2nd degree) but also to put my kids through theirs.... How? I worked hard at it, went without things for myself... All I am saying once again, is.. that you cannot make sweeping statements xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
Yes, yes they do.
And their kids move in with them too I suppose?
I can understand mature single people living the student life but a married woman with three children in tow isn't going to be able to afford uni digs as well as putting a roof over her children's heads... unless she has a high earning husband, in which case she can pay for her own goddam degree.
Hm.... me on my own with several children (I am talking a few years back now) and managing to not only fund my own (2nd degree) but also to put my kids through theirs.... How? I worked hard at it, went without things for myself... All I am saying once again, is.. that you cannot make sweeping statements xx"
But there we have it... if you did it, so can others. All it takes is the very thing you demonstrated... dedication and determination.
If a bright student from a poor background wants a Uni education, she or he will get it one way or another.
Cream always rises to the top. It's a simple fact of life. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
Yes, yes they do.
And their kids move in with them too I suppose?
I can understand mature single people living the student life but a married woman with three children in tow isn't going to be able to afford uni digs as well as putting a roof over her children's heads... unless she has a high earning husband, in which case she can pay for her own goddam degree.
Hm.... me on my own with several children (I am talking a few years back now) and managing to not only fund my own (2nd degree) but also to put my kids through theirs.... How? I worked hard at it, went without things for myself... All I am saying once again, is.. that you cannot make sweeping statements xx
But there we have it... if you did it, so can others. All it takes is the very thing you demonstrated... dedication and determination.
If a bright student from a poor background wants a Uni education, she or he will get it one way or another.
Cream always rises to the top. It's a simple fact of life."
Yes and no, my favaourite saying. Really what I was saying and maybe it was not clear in previous post, I already had one degree so was lucky to be in a job that paid well. I took on another job to make provcisions for funding my second education. If you are not fortunate to have that first education/ degere/ apprenticeship.... then you would not be able to do what I did. Does this make sense? xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
Yes, yes they do.
And their kids move in with them too I suppose?
I can understand mature single people living the student life but a married woman with three children in tow isn't going to be able to afford uni digs as well as putting a roof over her children's heads... unless she has a high earning husband, in which case she can pay for her own goddam degree.
Hm.... me on my own with several children (I am talking a few years back now) and managing to not only fund my own (2nd degree) but also to put my kids through theirs.... How? I worked hard at it, went without things for myself... All I am saying once again, is.. that you cannot make sweeping statements xx
But there we have it... if you did it, so can others. All it takes is the very thing you demonstrated... dedication and determination.
If a bright student from a poor background wants a Uni education, she or he will get it one way or another.
Cream always rises to the top. It's a simple fact of life.
Yes and no, my favaourite saying. Really what I was saying and maybe it was not clear in previous post, I already had one degree so was lucky to be in a job that paid well. I took on another job to make provcisions for funding my second education. If you are not fortunate to have that first education/ degere/ apprenticeship.... then you would not be able to do what I did. Does this make sense? xx"
Yes it does. You took on extra work to fund your second degree. How many students on first degrees go out and get a full time job to fund it? They don't, because their course isn't structured that way, they have to be available to attend lectures etc, but students seem to think that when the learning stops it's time to get and get wankered on cheap booze in a subsidised Student Union bar. Get a bloody job is what I'll tell my youngun, or Dad's gravy train rolls out of the station. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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".............Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it."
Because, in the past, many, many other people paid THEIR taxes so that you (and me and many others like us) could, if we so chose and were bright enough - not just wealthy enough, go on to university, get a degree and, in some instances, help improve society as a whole.
Not all solicitors, for example, work for the big guys like Carter Fuck. Many work in community law centres providing pro-bono services for those who can't afford High Street fees.
Hospital physicians don't start on consultant salaries. Junior doctor rates are much lower and, until recently, the hours were horrendous - often working out at little more than National Minimum Wage.
Few first graduate jobs in any field outwith London pay £40,000 pa to start.
Is there an argument for finding a workable way of clawing back some of the support we've provided to undergraduates once they're in better paid employent (without driving them beyond the clutches of HMRC)? Yes, indeed. HOW we make it work is another matter yet to be decided/
We invest in the future of our brightest and our best because it pays dividends for all of us in the fullness of time - just as those of us who pay tax do so to pay the pensions of older members of society and just as our children's generation will pay tax to pay our pensions.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do mature students sit in the same classes as 19y/o uni students? Sleep in 'fresher' rooms on campus in the first year? Share a pad with other mature students for the last two years?
Yes, yes they do.
And their kids move in with them too I suppose?
I can understand mature single people living the student life but a married woman with three children in tow isn't going to be able to afford uni digs as well as putting a roof over her children's heads... unless she has a high earning husband, in which case she can pay for her own goddam degree.
Hm.... me on my own with several children (I am talking a few years back now) and managing to not only fund my own (2nd degree) but also to put my kids through theirs.... How? I worked hard at it, went without things for myself... All I am saying once again, is.. that you cannot make sweeping statements xx
But there we have it... if you did it, so can others. All it takes is the very thing you demonstrated... dedication and determination.
If a bright student from a poor background wants a Uni education, she or he will get it one way or another.
Cream always rises to the top. It's a simple fact of life.
Yes and no, my favaourite saying. Really what I was saying and maybe it was not clear in previous post, I already had one degree so was lucky to be in a job that paid well. I took on another job to make provcisions for funding my second education. If you are not fortunate to have that first education/ degere/ apprenticeship.... then you would not be able to do what I did. Does this make sense? xx
Yes it does. You took on extra work to fund your second degree. How many students on first degrees go out and get a full time job to fund it? They don't, because their course isn't structured that way, they have to be available to attend lectures etc, but students seem to think that when the learning stops it's time to get and get wankered on cheap booze in a subsidised Student Union bar. Get a bloody job is what I'll tell my youngun, or Dad's gravy train rolls out of the station."
I cannot agree with you there, based on the experience of my own kids (of course that means small numbers in the big picture of stats) and their friends. Yes, of course you find some immature wasters who having barely left home, hit the bars. But the majority (personal experience also from when teaching at Sixth Form - the majority are hard working and keen to find work afterwards.
I think the much wider issue and topic are social injustice (and that is just so much bigegr than students/ education and unrest about fees) and I am just not sure if focussing on one group of the population is going to be answer. Many changes have to be considered and put in place to allevaite social injustice.
And... to quote Forrest Gump....
...
...
thats all I am going to have to say about that xx |
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"My neice is at Uni studying acting stuff, choreography and set design. All these are traditionally taught "on the job". She was offered an Apprenticeship, but turned it down! Why? Because she wanted to spend time as a student and live the student lifestyle. Also, if she had on the job training, she would have to work!
If we are going to pay for people to go to Uni, then lets at least make sure that the courses are of some benefit to the country.
Theatre earns 2.6 billion a year for this country
Film 3.5 billion sounds like they are one of the few thriving industries to me. At least someone is actually making something we can sell on
actually on this point... one of the infamous "quango's" was the film council.... and for every pound of it's existance spent it actually made 6 pounds back in profiles awareness and profiles back into the ecomony...
so not all were bad.. and it is making profits back for the greater good...
Didn't the British Film Council receive £160m of lottery funding and have only received £80m back? This is in today's news on bbc.co.uk, but having said that, can anything the Beeb put out these days be free from leftist propoganda?"
The beeb is respected as a fair media enterprise all over the world wishy,if it does lean to the left and i am not sure it does,it is only living up to its mandate of plurality in the media to redress the private owned companies who tend to lean to the right .
Also the BFI employs 35000 people and made 1 billion quid for the country last year.
TV employs 80000 and also brought in 1 billion pound last year in foreign earnings
most people employed in these fields are university graduates .Itd one of the reasons other countrys are investing more in H.E is because they know they need them to create wealth .
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"............
We invest in the future of our brightest and our best because it pays dividends for all of us in the fullness of time - just as those of us who pay tax do so to pay the pensions of older members of society and just as our children's generation will pay tax to pay our pensions.
"
Could not have put it better myself xx |
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".............Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it.
Because, in the past, many, many other people paid THEIR taxes so that you (and me and many others like us) could, if we so chose and were bright enough - not just wealthy enough, go on to university, get a degree and, in some instances, help improve society as a whole.
Not all solicitors, for example, work for the big guys like Carter Fuck. Many work in community law centres providing pro-bono services for those who can't afford High Street fees.
Hospital physicians don't start on consultant salaries. Junior doctor rates are much lower and, until recently, the hours were horrendous - often working out at little more than National Minimum Wage.
Few first graduate jobs in any field outwith London pay £40,000 pa to start.
Is there an argument for finding a workable way of clawing back some of the support we've provided to undergraduates once they're in better paid employent (without driving them beyond the clutches of HMRC)? Yes, indeed. HOW we make it work is another matter yet to be decided/
We invest in the future of our brightest and our best because it pays dividends for all of us in the fullness of time - just as those of us who pay tax do so to pay the pensions of older members of society and just as our children's generation will pay tax to pay our pensions.
"
Well said ...totally agree with you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My neice is at Uni studying acting stuff, choreography and set design. All these are traditionally taught "on the job". She was offered an Apprenticeship, but turned it down! Why? Because she wanted to spend time as a student and live the student lifestyle. Also, if she had on the job training, she would have to work!
If we are going to pay for people to go to Uni, then lets at least make sure that the courses are of some benefit to the country.
Theatre earns 2.6 billion a year for this country
Film 3.5 billion sounds like they are one of the few thriving industries to me. At least someone is actually making something we can sell on
actually on this point... one of the infamous "quango's" was the film council.... and for every pound of it's existance spent it actually made 6 pounds back in profiles awareness and profiles back into the ecomony...
so not all were bad.. and it is making profits back for the greater good...
Didn't the British Film Council receive £160m of lottery funding and have only received £80m back? This is in today's news on bbc.co.uk, but having said that, can anything the Beeb put out these days be free from leftist propoganda?
The beeb is respected as a fair media enterprise all over the world wishy,if it does lean to the left and i am not sure it does,it is only living up to its mandate of plurality in the media to redress the private owned companies who tend to lean to the right .
Also the BFI employs 35000 people and made 1 billion quid for the country last year.
TV employs 80000 and also brought in 1 billion pound last year in foreign earnings
most people employed in these fields are university graduates .Itd one of the reasons other countrys are investing more in H.E is because they know they need them to create wealth .
"
You gotta be shitting me!
IF it leans to the left?
It's so far over there that if it was a fookin ship it would capsize.
Ever since the election the BBC has been systematic in it's pro-Labour stance and slaughtered anything the Coalition has put out.
Unbiased? Don't make me laugh. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
We invest in the future of our brightest and our best because it pays dividends for all of us in the fullness of time - just as those of us who pay tax do so to pay the pensions of older members of society and just as our children's generation will pay tax to pay our pensions.
"
If that's the case, that Uni grads provide taxation on high salaries that pay for the pensions of the people who paid taxes to put them through Uni in the first place - why isn't the state pension the same as the guaranteed minimum wage - but it isn't, is it? The state pension is a measly £97.65/week and you have to pay into it for a full 30 years to get even that.
The minimum wage is £5.93/hour and over a 35-hour week amounts to £207.55.
Big difference isn't there. And all these grads will pay me back by providing me with a decent standard of living in my old age will they?
Sure they will, and look at those pigs flying by out there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I agree about the disparity between the basic pension and the NMW although I'm aware there are pension credits available but that they can be difficult to claim.
I'm even more surprised about the difference between unemployment benefit of some £65 per week and basic state pension. What is it about going from 64 years and 364 days to 65 years which means you need an extra £30 per week?
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" They will benefit the most rom investing in their own future. Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it."
Years ago I struggled on low pay to put one of my kids through uni, they have never had a full time jobin what they are qualified to do so, they are not about in this area, they take any job thats going and work long and hard to live the life they do, and theres no 40k a year job at the end of it for them! |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
".............Why the fuck should I pay my taxes so that people I don't know can swan off to Uni, get a degree and walk into a £40k+ a year job at the end of it. Where's the value for me in providing that funding? Let them fund it themselves, as they are the ones who will gain from it.
Because, in the past, many, many other people paid THEIR taxes so that you (and me and many others like us) could, if we so chose and were bright enough - not just wealthy enough, go on to university, get a degree and, in some instances, help improve society as a whole.
Not all solicitors, for example, work for the big guys like Carter Fuck. Many work in community law centres providing pro-bono services for those who can't afford High Street fees.
Hospital physicians don't start on consultant salaries. Junior doctor rates are much lower and, until recently, the hours were horrendous - often working out at little more than National Minimum Wage.
Few first graduate jobs in any field outwith London pay £40,000 pa to start.
Is there an argument for finding a workable way of clawing back some of the support we've provided to undergraduates once they're in better paid employent (without driving them beyond the clutches of HMRC)? Yes, indeed. HOW we make it work is another matter yet to be decided/
We invest in the future of our brightest and our best because it pays dividends for all of us in the fullness of time - just as those of us who pay tax do so to pay the pensions of older members of society and just as our children's generation will pay tax to pay our pensions.
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couldn't have put it better myself.....
it does smack of "selfishness" that those who went to university and improvement themselves on the states money now want those behind them to pay
good enough for us... but now not good enough for you!!!!
funny enough... you didn't hear the same bickering and moaning from our parents.... they did it for the greater good..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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What a load of nonsense. Years ago University was 'expected' of certain youngsters (middle/upper class offspring) but it was considered a real achievement for someone from the lower classes to attend Uni. With a 'free' higher education system we had plenty of drop outs in the second year that cost the Uni a lot of money whereas this new system will ensure that those prepared to cough up £9k/year will make damn sure they complete the course.
Why do people continue to believe that everything should be free? Pay higher levels of tax if you want a 'free' ride, but don't think for a second that 20p in each £ is gonna buy a lot for your money, cos here's the news, it buys diddly squat and the country simply cannot afford to dish out free degree courses to people who can simply drop out if they think it's a pile of crap.
If students want something let them bloody well pay for it and stop bleating on about how they'll 'repay' the country later when they're earning higher wages and paying higher taxes - cos the chances are they'll have a nice bank account in the Cayman Islands and avoid paying anything back at all.
It's not my job to feed & clothe, educate and nurture someone else's off spring, I look out for my own kids and I certainly don't think we're "all in this together" cos no fooker came round my house 8 years ago and offered me £3k to pay off my mortgage arrears. The govt didn't want to help and the dole office said I was entitled to sod all. And when I asked to be re-housed I was told 'sorry, you're a white British male, you're at the bottom of the list."
Well, I remember that, and now, I have a 'fuck them' attitude and I provide for my own and that's it! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Bet your happy pocketing the child tax credit for the little un tho wishy, paid for by other tax payers "
oo gee, all £20 a week of it. Which is probably my own tax I paid anyway. |
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