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Schindler's list, brutal German
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"Nothing can apologise for genicide "The Germans remain vigilant and aware of their past. | |||
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"Nothing can apologise for genicide
The Germans remain vigilant and aware of their past."They do indeed. | |||
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"Nothing can apologise for genicide "The Irish would could say the same and you could go back further and further in time. Non of it is right but current generations are not responsible for the past. | |||
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"Bastards" Was you there then? | |||
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"Bastards" Shallow. Spent a long weekend in germany recently and great people we met. History should not be forgotten as there was terrible terrible suffreing but your post might as well read no 'coloureds' in britain which would be equally ludicrous. Sad that people will hold others to account for what their forfathers did... Remember we were the world leaders in slavery! | |||
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"Bastards Was you there then?" My grandfather was there, so... At least let me just say bastards | |||
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"Bastards" What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion?" It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. | |||
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"Bastards Was you there then? My grandfather was there, so... At least let me just say bastards "My great grandfather was killed by the Black and Tans... does that make all English land grabbing imperialists murderers? | |||
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"Bastards Shallow. Spent a long weekend in germany recently and great people we met. History should not be forgotten as there was terrible terrible suffreing but your post might as well read no 'coloureds' in britain which would be equally ludicrous. Sad that people will hold others to account for what their forfathers did... Remember we were the world leaders in slavery!" 
As a country, in the past, we have done some fairly nasty things in the interest of 'civilising' certain parts of the world including using the concentration camp well before the WW2 era. As a modern nation can we be held responsible for what our forefather did? | |||
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"Germans are actually some of the nicest people. " come on, lets not go that far
*ducks from a certain lady on here* | |||
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"Germans are actually some of the nicest people. " Some are some aren't same as people n most countries. The Bavarians can be pretty arrogant sods though just like the Scots are here  | |||
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"It's a great film and portrays the atrocities well . Having spent several yrs working in Germany and I've visited some concentration camps myself , the Germans are well aware of what went on . But what people fail to mention is that the Allies , inc Britain , all knew what was going on and did nothing what so ever to stop it . Who,s the Bastards ?" what of the french?,were they there too?,did they not lift a finger to try to stop it?. a lot of water has passed under the bridge since those days but we stil trade with the japanese,germans,italians et al. | |||
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"Some of them where at the time yes. I havn't seen the film but I am guessing you just have " It's a very good film. There is a statue at Liverpool Street Station (London) depicting the Kinder Transport. | |||
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"Some of them where at the time yes. I havn't seen the film but I am guessing you just have It's a very good film. There is a statue at Liverpool Street Station (London) depicting the Kinder Transport." They transported kids in mini chocolate eggs? Did they have to take the crap toy out first?  | |||
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"Bastards Shallow. Spent a long weekend in germany recently and great people we met. History should not be forgotten as there was terrible terrible suffreing but your post might as well read no 'coloureds' in britain which would be equally ludicrous. Sad that people will hold others to account for what their forfathers did... Remember we were the world leaders in slavery!
As a country, in the past, we have done some fairly nasty things in the interest of 'civilising' certain parts of the world including using the concentration camp well before the WW2 era. As a modern nation can we be held responsible for what our forefather did?"Totally agree with you, having been lucky enough to travel with work the pre conceptions about other countries are wiped away by working there. The world as a whole is a great place and the people in it x | |||
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"Some of them where at the time yes. I havn't seen the film but I am guessing you just have "
And my grandfather was there | |||
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"Don't live in the past. " is rememberence sunday not living in the past ??? | |||
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"Bastards Shallow. Spent a long weekend in germany recently and great people we met. History should not be forgotten as there was terrible terrible suffreing but your post might as well read no 'coloureds' in britain which would be equally ludicrous. Sad that people will hold others to account for what their forfathers did... Remember we were the world leaders in slavery!
As a country, in the past, we have done some fairly nasty things in the interest of 'civilising' certain parts of the world including using the concentration camp well before the WW2 era. As a modern nation can we be held responsible for what our forefather did?
Totally agree with you, having been lucky enough to travel with work the pre conceptions about other countries are wiped away by working there. The world as a whole is a great place and the people in it x" | |||
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"Bloody hell, can't anyone express disgust at something so bad anymore? Wow" Or so good,mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm | |||
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"Don't live in the past. is rememberence sunday not living in the past ???" | |||
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"Don't live in the past. is rememberence sunday not living in the past ???" is not living in the past but remembering it!. a reflection of what has gone before is not living it all over again. | |||
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"Bloody hell, can't anyone express disgust at something so bad anymore? Wow Or so good,mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm " | |||
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"Don't live in the past. is rememberence sunday not living in the past ???" Nope. It's remembering the dead. There's a difference  | |||
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"Don't live in the past. is rememberence sunday not living in the past ??? is not living in the past but remembering it!. a reflection of what has gone before is not living it all over again." and is the OP not remembering what atrocities were committed to the jewish people??? people still remember things like the titanic sinking and still say it was a shame and what a waste of lives.. rather similar imho. just saying... now, i'm out | |||
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"Germans are actually some of the nicest people. Some are some aren't same as people n most countries. The Bavarians can be pretty arrogant sods though just like the Scots are here "I've actually socialised with Bavarian people for a whole year when I was at the Uni of York. I didn't see any arrogance | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. " I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide. | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide." No you asked what was his point not what should be done about it they are totally different things. | |||
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"Germans are actually some of the nicest people. Some are some aren't same as people n most countries. The Bavarians can be pretty arrogant sods though just like the Scots are here
I've actually socialised with Bavarian people for a whole year when I was at the Uni of York. I didn't see any arrogance"Visitors then to the UK I guess spending months on end over there with work on and off for over 5 years is irrelevant then after all its how they behave in a foreign environment that counts not relaxed in their own.  | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide.No you asked what was his point not what should be done about it they are totally different things." Go back and read again. My post says "Who should be doing what, in your opinion?" You even re-quoted it. In what way is that not asking what he expects to be done and by whom? Now, would you like to also berate everyone else who commented that it's been a long time since it happened or would you like to acknowledge that you singled my post out to deliberately try to needle me? | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide.No you asked what was his point not what should be done about it they are totally different things. Go back and read again. My post says "Who should be doing what, in your opinion?" You even re-quoted it. In what way is that not asking what he expects to be done and by whom? Now, would you like to also berate everyone else who commented that it's been a long time since it happened or would you like to acknowledge that you singled my post out to deliberately try to needle me?" I was questioning the specific line "What's your point?" He wasn't making a point he was commenting on the film re-read dis original post. | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide.No you asked what was his point not what should be done about it they are totally different things. Go back and read again. My post says "Who should be doing what, in your opinion?" You even re-quoted it. In what way is that not asking what he expects to be done and by whom? Now, would you like to also berate everyone else who commented that it's been a long time since it happened or would you like to acknowledge that you singled my post out to deliberately try to needle me? I was questioning the specific line "What's your point?" He wasn't making a point he was commenting on the film re-read dis original post. " To question something you have to ask a question. There's no question in your post. "Bastards" whilst undeniably true is a bit of an inflammatory way to start the thread so I was wondering what it was intended to achieve. It's clear now that it is a remembrance thread but it wasn't clear to me when I posted. | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide.No you asked what was his point not what should be done about it they are totally different things. Go back and read again. My post says "Who should be doing what, in your opinion?" You even re-quoted it. In what way is that not asking what he expects to be done and by whom? Now, would you like to also berate everyone else who commented that it's been a long time since it happened or would you like to acknowledge that you singled my post out to deliberately try to needle me? I was questioning the specific line "What's your point?" He wasn't making a point he was commenting on the film re-read dis original post. To question something you have to ask a question. There's no question in your post. "Bastards" whilst undeniably true is a bit of an inflammatory way to start the thread so I was wondering what it was intended to achieve. It's clear now that it is a remembrance thread but it wasn't clear to me when I posted." | |||
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"Bastards What's your point? Yes, it was so horrific it's difficult to find an appropriate word to use. However, it was a long while ago now. And when those involved are identified they are still tried and held to account for their crimes. Who should be doing what, in your opinion? It was a comment on a film he made and in the context of the situation ie 1940s he had a point but it has been said earlier in this thread by a few people thats the past so no need to demand what his point is this far down. I asked what he thinks should be being done and by whom. He's already stated that nothing can atone for genocide.No you asked what was his point not what should be done about it they are totally different things. Go back and read again. My post says "Who should be doing what, in your opinion?" You even re-quoted it. In what way is that not asking what he expects to be done and by whom? Now, would you like to also berate everyone else who commented that it's been a long time since it happened or would you like to acknowledge that you singled my post out to deliberately try to needle me? I was questioning the specific line "What's your point?" He wasn't making a point he was commenting on the film re-read dis original post. To question something you have to ask a question. There's no question in your post. "Bastards" whilst undeniably true is a bit of an inflammatory way to start the thread so I was wondering what it was intended to achieve. It's clear now that it is a remembrance thread but it wasn't clear to me when I posted." | |||
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"Bastards" They killed Kenny! | |||
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"Just thinking what my Grandad went through, and not classing Germans today as the same, but by god, what a really evil way to treat human beings..... My grandad's quote is, can't speak about it, it hurts so much.... Not arguing with any one, because everyone has an opinion...but I used too see in his eyes how bad it was, even my dad has promised not to say anything, due to respect to my Grandad "What's most sickening are the neo-nazis and sad conspiracy theorists who deny that the holocaust ever happened. | |||
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"I think we need to remember that the average German person didn't want war or the atrocities which took place any more than anyone else. Those who fought in the German Armed forces did so because they had no option in much the same way as our citizens had to do the same. I've been around Auschwitz and Majdanek concentration camps and words fail me - I am unable to put into words how I felt just looking around the places as they were 12 years ago, so I cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like to be held, tortured and eventually killed there, but getting back to my original point, to simply class all Germans as 'bastards' is wrong in my opinion but I do agree that some of them were and probably still are bastards in much the same way as there are bastards in every other race, colour and creed." Brilliant post.
No one can blame modern day Germans for what went on 70 years ago. But everyone should remember the political ideology that lead to it. Fachism doesn't start with genocide and concentration camps and people need to remember that. | |||
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"Here is a story......my grandad who was Danish worked with the resistance in the war...he took Jews to Sweden in the famous blue boats... Any how I was in an museum in Jerusalem and saw his name on a plague (He was alive at this time) it made me understand just the danger he was in.... I have lived in Germany and they are well aware of their history..with regret " | |||
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"Bastards Was you there then? My grandfather was there, so... At least let me just say bastards "Your grandfather was there, not you! The majority of us had relatives that fought in WW2. Let us look at British history, close to home, Ireland and Highland clearances. Further afield, slavery, brutality of colonial powers, concentration camps in south Africa. Just a few, many many more. "Bastards"? | |||
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"Nothing can apologise for genicide
The Irish would could say the same and you could go back further and further in time. Non of it is right but current generations are not responsible for the past. "But we are responsible for ensuring history does not repeat itself - sadly we fail badly at this. | |||
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"I think we need to remember that the average German person didn't want war or the atrocities which took place any more than anyone else. Those who fought in the German Armed forces did so because they had no option in much the same way as our citizens had to do the same. I've been around Auschwitz and Majdanek concentration camps and words fail me - I am unable to put into words how I felt just looking around the places as they were 12 years ago, so I cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like to be held, tortured and eventually killed there, but getting back to my original point, to simply class all Germans as 'bastards' is wrong in my opinion but I do agree that some of them were and probably still are bastards in much the same way as there are bastards in every other race, colour and creed." There is a very good book called 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' which counters this viewpoint. Many Germans of the time were very antisemitic, as were the Poles, which enabled the regime of the time to do what they did. Could it happen elsewhere? Yes. Does it make the Germans evil? No. You only have to listen to some of the Islamophobic rhetoric in this country to realise that. | |||
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"who invented concentration camps?" The British? | |||
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"who invented concentration camps? The British?" And genocide? Not the British and we had an inkling in 1919 on the West coast of Africa of what the Germans were capable of - they almost wiped out the Herero tribe using genocide. It was deliberate policy. We can point fingers all day - many countries have many dark and shameful secrets - they point is, do we learn from it? Sometimes we do - sometimes we don't. | |||
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"who invented concentration camps? The British?" Correct. It was during the Boer War I believe. | |||
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"who invented concentration camps? The British?" I thought so but apparently not. It was the US that used then first (for Indians), then the Spanish in Cuba. And then us: ' Shortly after similar concentration camps were used by the British in the Second Boer War in South Africa around 1900. The families of South African men fighting against the British were put in camps to stop them from giving food and help to the fighters. Their houses and farms were burned. At least 30,000 people, mostly children, died in these camps from sickness or hunger.' | |||
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"who invented concentration camps? The British? And genocide? Not the British and we had an inkling in 1919 on the West coast of Africa of what the Germans were capable of - they almost wiped out the Herero tribe using genocide. It was deliberate policy. We can point fingers all day - many countries have many dark and shameful secrets - they point is, do we learn from it? Sometimes we do - sometimes we don't. " lol that was unfortunate timing! | |||
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"who invented concentration camps? The British? I thought so but apparently not. It was the US that used then first (for Indians), then the Spanish in Cuba. And then us: ' Shortly after similar concentration camps were used by the British in the Second Boer War in South Africa around 1900. The families of South African men fighting against the British were put in camps to stop them from giving food and help to the fighters. Their houses and farms were burned. At least 30,000 people, mostly children, died in these camps from sickness or hunger.'" Ahh yes but the British were so fond of them that named them! | |||
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"who invented concentration camps? The British? I thought so but apparently not. It was the US that used then first (for Indians), then the Spanish in Cuba. And then us: ' Shortly after similar concentration camps were used by the British in the Second Boer War in South Africa around 1900. The families of South African men fighting against the British were put in camps to stop them from giving food and help to the fighters. Their houses and farms were burned. At least 30,000 people, mostly children, died in these camps from sickness or hunger.'" And it was not deliberate policy to kill them. Furthermore, a concentration camp is not a death camp. In Nazi Germany and the other areas under German control there were several types of camp. The first concentration camp opened in 1933 - that was Dachau. It was intended to 'concentrate' people against the regime in one place. Then there were work camps - 'Arbeitslager' - Theriensenstadt not far from Prague was a transit camp. Finally there were the 'Operation Rheinhard' camps which came about after the 1942 Wannsee conference in Berlin. These were Treblinka, Sobibor and Maidenek (I think). Finally there was the daddy of them all - Auschwitz which murdered more Jews than any other camp. These deliberate 'factories of death' were completely unheard of. This is what makes the Holocaust unique - that, and the fact that it was deliberate policy. They actually ran these camps in a 'production line' of death. | |||
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"There is a very good book called 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' which counters this viewpoint. Many Germans of the time were very antisemitic, as were the Poles, which enabled the regime of the time to do what they did. Could it happen elsewhere? Yes. Does it make the Germans evil? No. You only have to listen to some of the Islamophobic rhetoric in this country to realise that." Firstly let me say that hatred, prejudice against and anti Jewish sentiment (will not call it antisemitic as the Jews are not the only are not the only people to speak a Semitic language) were rife in the world and especially across ALL of Europe the USSR and the USA in the 1930's. We find it convenient to forget that. We knew what was happening and refused to do anything it, in fact we made it hard for Jews to escape Germany (unless they were rich), bit like we always do and are doing with Syria now. It should further be noted that we (that is our government) knew about the death camps in 1943 and again chose to remain silent. Maybe the German people (who the Nazis had power of life and death over) are not as guilty, and we not as innocent, as we choose to believe. | |||
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"There is a very good book called 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' which counters this viewpoint. Many Germans of the time were very antisemitic, as were the Poles, which enabled the regime of the time to do what they did. Could it happen elsewhere? Yes. Does it make the Germans evil? No. You only have to listen to some of the Islamophobic rhetoric in this country to realise that.Firstly let me say that hatred, prejudice against and anti Jewish sentiment (will not call it antisemitic as the Jews are not the only are not the only people to speak a Semitic language) were rife in the world and especially across ALL of Europe the USSR and the USA in the 1930's. We find it convenient to forget that. We knew what was happening and refused to do anything it, in fact we made it hard for Jews to escape Germany (unless they were rich), bit like we always do and are doing with Syria now. It should further be noted that we (that is our government) knew about the death camps in 1943 and again chose to remain silent. Maybe the German people (who the Nazis had power of life and death over) are not as guilty, and we not as innocent, as we choose to believe. " Which is very much what I was getting at in an earlier post. I am not being anti-German in what I post. I am only posting facts in general. The truth is that death camps were invented by the Nazi regime. Note that I use that term - not 'the Germans'. Many Germans were very anti-semitic - as were the Poles as I also stated. I mentioned those and not the allies simply because that was where the majority of Jews were murdered. | |||
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"And it was not deliberate policy to kill them. Furthermore, a concentration camp is not a death camp. In Nazi Germany and the other areas under German control there were several types of camp. The first concentration camp opened in 1933 - that was Dachau. It was intended to 'concentrate' people against the regime in one place. Then there were work camps - 'Arbeitslager' - Theriensenstadt not far from Prague was a transit camp. Finally there were the 'Operation Rheinhard' camps which came about after the 1942 Wannsee conference in Berlin. These were Treblinka, Sobibor and Maidenek (I think). Finally there was the daddy of them all - Auschwitz which murdered more Jews than any other camp. These deliberate 'factories of death' were completely unheard of. This is what makes the Holocaust unique - that, and the fact that it was deliberate policy. They actually ran these camps in a 'production line' of death. " Good post and correct in the most part except for right at the end, and it is the little mistakes that leave those who would deny the killing camps to get away with it. Auschwitz was not a death camp, it was a collection of slave labour camps. The death camp was Birkenau (been there and it is bleak ).
I know its knit picking but the argument used by the deniers is that Auschwitz supplied labour to the IG Farben factories built outside Krakow. | |||
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"And it was not deliberate policy to kill them. Furthermore, a concentration camp is not a death camp. In Nazi Germany and the other areas under German control there were several types of camp. The first concentration camp opened in 1933 - that was Dachau. It was intended to 'concentrate' people against the regime in one place. Then there were work camps - 'Arbeitslager' - Theriensenstadt not far from Prague was a transit camp. Finally there were the 'Operation Rheinhard' camps which came about after the 1942 Wannsee conference in Berlin. These were Treblinka, Sobibor and Maidenek (I think). Finally there was the daddy of them all - Auschwitz which murdered more Jews than any other camp. These deliberate 'factories of death' were completely unheard of. This is what makes the Holocaust unique - that, and the fact that it was deliberate policy. They actually ran these camps in a 'production line' of death. Good post and correct in the most part except for right at the end, and it is the little mistakes that leave those who would deny the killing camps to get away with it. Auschwitz was not a death camp, it was a collection of slave labour camps. The death camp was Birkenau (been there and it is bleak ).
I know its knit picking but the argument used by the deniers is that Auschwitz supplied labour to the IG Farben factories built outside Krakow. "You are correct - it was Birkenau - and I have been there too. I used Auschwitz because that is the common understanding. Have you read Primo Levi's book 'If this is a man' about his time at the Buna factory there? | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up." I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country! | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up. I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country!"
It's not just about the beer and the cars, they have it so much better than us. They seem happier with their jobs, they seem to get treated better, such a nicer looking country (although that would be easy when you think geographically) | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up. I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country!
It's not just about the beer and the cars, they have it so much better than us. They seem happier with their jobs, they seem to get treated better, such a nicer looking country (although that would be easy when you think geographically)"I've travelled across the country many times by train so seen a fair bit of it. Yes, it is beautiful but I still see that beauty here. In my opinion it is not a nicer looking country and they have their run down areas and seedy places just like we do. Especially in the east. | |||
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"Have you read Primo Levi's book 'If this is a man' about his time at the Buna factory there?" No but I will be in the Library tomorrow ordering it. I have read a lot about the einsatzgruppen, the death marshes and Denis Avey's book. All very harrowing. | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up. I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country!
It's not just about the beer and the cars, they have it so much better than us. They seem happier with their jobs, they seem to get treated better, such a nicer looking country (although that would be easy when you think geographically)
I've travelled across the country many times by train so seen a fair bit of it. Yes, it is beautiful but I still see that beauty here. In my opinion it is not a nicer looking country and they have their run down areas and seedy places just like we do. Especially in the east."I have spent many years working in Germany (east and west). They are fantastic people, they have a pride in their country we lack (even in the seedy and rundown areas). But I still love Briton more! | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up. I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country!
It's not just about the beer and the cars, they have it so much better than us. They seem happier with their jobs, they seem to get treated better, such a nicer looking country (although that would be easy when you think geographically)
I've travelled across the country many times by train so seen a fair bit of it. Yes, it is beautiful but I still see that beauty here. In my opinion it is not a nicer looking country and they have their run down areas and seedy places just like we do. Especially in the east.I have spent many years working in Germany (east and west). They are fantastic people, they have a pride in their country we lack (even in the seedy and rundown areas).
But I still love Briton more!"There's certainly less litter. I think it is the German tendency to tell you off in public if you are doing something wrong - they see it as their public duty which is admirable but can grate a little if you are not used to it. If you did that here the result would most likely be abuse. I too prefer Britain - love living here. No place is perfect. | |||
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" There's certainly less litter. I think it is the German tendency to tell you off in public if you are doing something wrong - they see it as their public duty which is admirable but can grate a little if you are not used to it. If you did that here the result would most likely be abuse. I too prefer Britain - love living here. No place is perfect." No, but it's good to be able to respect that. I think that sense of duty arose from their sense of guilt, at least the West. That's probably why they're such an exceptional country. They've given a lot to the world since but they've also remembered to do well by themselves. | |||
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"Genocide yes they did it twice . But just you wait and see the bastards tactics this time round, with their bail outs to European countries they are now dictating how we are to run our own countries. This is the start of the 4th Reich " Not a very enlightened post. | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex." Have you heard of the Milgram experiment, if not have a little read, its genuine and has been repeated many times always with the same results. It will help you understand and make you realize that making people do things they normally wouldn't only requires the right uniform. We are all very easy to manipulate. | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up. I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country!" Thumbs for both comments. I would only say that the bureaucrats here are pussycats compared to the jobsworths in the UK. and the arrogant pigs in Spain.
As for the OP. I too (along with my German partner) have seen Schindlers List, it is a very powerful and moving film depicting horrific real events that happened 70 years ago.
The Germans, probably more than any other nation, are well aware of their country's past, and apart from a few far right loonies (mostly from the old communist east) have no desire to ever repeat it. Not only did they have to rebuild after WW2 but had to do it sat on the front line of the cold war, knowing that if it ever became a shooting war they would be the first victims.
Germany today is a fantastic country that (like everybody in the EU) has its problems, but the German psyche and work ethic will always pull them through.
Just a pity I can't say that about the UK these days. | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex." It wasn't so much the culture rather than it was the deviation from the culture after the Versailles Treaty isolated Germany and left it to fester in what was essentially a collapsed economy. Desperation twists people to extremes. That is why (for those that mention genocide and 4th reichs) the likes of Angela Merkel are trying to help Europe recover with its economy, because so much civil war around the world is not to be sniffed at. If anyone knows how to prevent a world war, it would be them. | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. It wasn't so much the culture rather than it was the deviation from the culture after the Versailles Treaty isolated Germany and left it to fester in what was essentially a collapsed economy. Desperation twists people to extremes. That is why (for those that mention genocide and 4th reichs) the likes of Angela Merkel are trying to help Europe recover with its economy, because so much civil war around the world is not to be sniffed at. If anyone knows how to prevent a world war, it would be them." Not forgetting the trouble we had with out own Fascists - Oswald Moseley (sp?). I agree that the Versailles Treaty was more than short-sighted. But that lesson was learned the hard way hence the way Germany was treated after WWII. No punitive reparations, etc. | |||
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"I love Germany, it's given the world so much since everybody kissed and made up. I've visited Germany many times as my in-laws used to live there. I have always loved the place and never had a problem with people there - with the exception of bureaucrats - but you could say that of bureaucrats in any country! Thumbs for both comments. I would only say that the bureaucrats here are pussycats compared to the jobsworths in the UK. and the arrogant pigs in Spain.
As for the OP. I too (along with my German partner) have seen Schindlers List, it is a very powerful and moving film depicting horrific real events that happened 70 years ago.
The Germans, probably more than any other nation, are well aware of their country's past, and apart from a few far right loonies (mostly from the old communist east) have no desire to ever repeat it. Not only did they have to rebuild after WW2 but had to do it sat on the front line of the cold war, knowing that if it ever became a shooting war they would be the first victims.
Germany today is a fantastic country that (like everybody in the EU) has its problems, but the German psyche and work ethic will always pull them through.
Just a pity I can't say that about the UK these days."Well, only going from my own experience, I thought the German bureaucrats were worse - and one was actively racist, unfortunately. Won't go in to details but it was regarding marrying my hubby at the time. He was from the Middle East and one particular registrar refused to marry us because of it. I still have the letter he sent me! Had to have it translated by a friend who was shocked when she read it. He claimed to be 'saving a white woman from and unknown foreign male'. The fact that we had been in a long term relationship cut no ice. Ended up getting married here instead. Did that make me assume all Germans were racists? No, of course not. But I did think the German bureaucrats were much more sticklers for following 'procedure'. | |||
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" There's certainly less litter. I think it is the German tendency to tell you off in public if you are doing something wrong - they see it as their public duty which is admirable but can grate a little if you are not used to it. If you did that here the result would most likely be abuse. I too prefer Britain - love living here. No place is perfect." Indeed! Having a stranger calmly call you a "shitehouse" and having everyone else agree does grate. But it makes you quickly modify your behaviour 
Not a bad thing in my book.
I will have to disagree about no place being perfect though.
I know the most idyllic place in the world, it is a little valley that faces south west with a view out over the sea and an ancient deciduous changing to evergreen forest opening on to side of a mountain in N Wales...
Ah maybe your correct...
I'm not Welsh... | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. It wasn't so much the culture rather than it was the deviation from the culture after the Versailles Treaty isolated Germany and left it to fester in what was essentially a collapsed economy. Desperation twists people to extremes. That is why (for those that mention genocide and 4th reichs) the likes of Angela Merkel are trying to help Europe recover with its economy, because so much civil war around the world is not to be sniffed at. If anyone knows how to prevent a world war, it would be them. Not forgetting the trouble we had with out own Fascists - Oswald Moseley (sp?). I agree that the Versailles Treaty was more than short-sighted. But that lesson was learned the hard way hence the way Germany was treated after WWII. No punitive reparations, etc." Of course, Germany caused a lot of damage and I suppose they were treated as humanely as the era allowed, yet it went on for too long. They were literally left for dead, but then we did the same to Russia when we were somewhat allies, and look what happened to them. The Cold War, as of the very eary 50's and some say it didn't even end with the fall of the Soviet State. Were Moseley's people called the Brownshirts, if i remember right? | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. It wasn't so much the culture rather than it was the deviation from the culture after the Versailles Treaty isolated Germany and left it to fester in what was essentially a collapsed economy. Desperation twists people to extremes. That is why (for those that mention genocide and 4th reichs) the likes of Angela Merkel are trying to help Europe recover with its economy, because so much civil war around the world is not to be sniffed at. If anyone knows how to prevent a world war, it would be them. Not forgetting the trouble we had with out own Fascists - Oswald Moseley (sp?). I agree that the Versailles Treaty was more than short-sighted. But that lesson was learned the hard way hence the way Germany was treated after WWII. No punitive reparations, etc. Of course, Germany caused a lot of damage and I suppose they were treated as humanely as the era allowed, yet it went on for too long. They were literally left for dead, but then we did the same to Russia when we were somewhat allies, and look what happened to them. The Cold War, as of the very eary 50's and some say it didn't even end with the fall of the Soviet State. Were Moseley's people called the Brownshirts, if i remember right? " Yes the Browshirts. The Mitford sisters were famously involved - one of them married Moseley and another, Nancy I think, became besotted with Hitler. Many people here flirted with fascism at the time. It seemed to offer answers in difficult times - much like communism. | |||
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" But what people fail to mention is that the Allies , inc Britain , all knew what was going on and did nothing what so ever to stop it . Who,s the Bastards ?" This is very important to remember See eg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383612/Jan-Karski-warned-Holocaust-1942-believed-him.html And it still continues - remember how little we did about Rwanda? | |||
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" Yes the Browshirts. The Mitford sisters were famously involved - one of them married Moseley and another, Nancy I think, became besotted with Hitler. Many people here flirted with fascism at the time. It seemed to offer answers in difficult times - much like communism." Hey, you know Hitler had a brother in Liverpool? lol You're right. I said somewhere else that the likes of Nazism can come in any form, even Labour and Conservative (look at Tony Blair jumping on the Middle Eastern bandwagon despite the country's mass protests). It's oppression in the most extreme form and yet it can be birthed from a minority ideal under the weight of oppression to begin with. I remember correctly that Scouse comedian and writer Alexei Sayle was also a practicing communist during Thatcher's years. | |||
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" But what people fail to mention is that the Allies , inc Britain , all knew what was going on and did nothing what so ever to stop it . Who,s the Bastards ? This is very important to remember See eg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383612/Jan-Karski-warned-Holocaust-1942-believed-him.html And it still continues - remember how little we did about Rwanda?" And again, I have a very good book about this called 'Tomorrow we will be killed along with our families' which lays the blame firmly at the foot of the UN and the French run refugee camps which were shelter for the Interahamwe who were responsible for much of the genocide. Very interesting reading. Oh, and sorry, have a large bookshelf! | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died." And, of course, Hitler sent support for Franco. I think though that people were war-weary after WWI. That form of total warfare had never been seen and it was a shock to the national psyche. | |||
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"I have visited auswitch And birkenau in Poland I went when it was snowing and it made it even more real Until you have been its hard to describe Yes it's in the past But you can't believe it was only 70 years ago!! " It was a beautiful August day when I went. It was peaceful. Very odd when you know what happened there. Been to Theresienstadt too also in summer. That seemed more eerie strangely enough. | |||
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"Aside from Germany, additionally... I FUCKIN LOVE HISTORY! "Me too though I am sadly ignorant of a lot of it. | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died. And, of course, Hitler sent support for Franco. I think though that people were war-weary after WWI. That form of total warfare had never been seen and it was a shock to the national psyche." Of course, the fact the Church came out on the side of Fascism didn't help the cause of democracy in Spain. | |||
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"Don't live in the past. is rememberence sunday not living in the past ???" No ! It's remembering those that died , those that gave up their lives to help others have a better future , including letting you have a view on this forum | |||
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"...... I remember correctly that Scouse comedian and writer Alexei Sayle was also a practicing communist during Thatcher's years." Is there any other sort of Communist? | |||
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"Aside from Germany, additionally... I FUCKIN LOVE HISTORY!
Me too though I am sadly ignorant of a lot of it.""jack of all trades, master of none" It's important to be good with a lot of things but it's essential to be brilliant at one. I think the same applies for singular moments in history that are important never to forget. So I dont think the Roman Empire will be needing us until the US jumps on Iran's sandcastles all over again | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died." Onny, you are right to a point. If the International Brigade had been larger, better funded and equipped and the Democrats had beaten Franco, Hitler would have been stopped. But not permanently, in fact such a setback could very well have changed the outcome of WW2. Many believe that had Hitler held back for 6 months and continued the buildup of forces before launching an offensive in spring 40 we would have lost. Dont forget its the 6 months of the phony war that gave us time to build the planes that stopped the invasion of Briton | |||
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"...... I remember correctly that Scouse comedian and writer Alexei Sayle was also a practicing communist during Thatcher's years. Is there any other sort of Communist?" Hahahaha
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died.Onny, you are right to a point. If the International Brigade had been larger, better funded and equipped and the Democrats had beaten Franco, Hitler would have been stopped. But not permanently, in fact such a setback could very well have changed the outcome of WW2. Many believe that had Hitler held back for 6 months and continued the buildup of forces before launching an offensive in spring 40 we would have lost. Dont forget its the 6 months of the phony war that gave us time to build the planes that stopped the invasion of Briton" Hitler would at least have been delayed, as you say, but he might actually have been put off altogether. Re planes that stopped the invasion. There's a (modern) view that it wasn't just the planes, it was a basic miscalculation at the German end about how many planes constituted a squadron. They assumed an RAF squadron was the same size as a Luftwaffe squadron and that was a fatal error when it came to the losses they reckoned they could suffer and still win. | |||
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"Bastards Was you there then? My grandfather was there, so... At least let me just say bastards "if were on about films just watched 101 dalmations what a bitch cruella deville is using your theory i hope all women arent like that | |||
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"Aside from Germany, additionally... I FUCKIN LOVE HISTORY!
Me too though I am sadly ignorant of a lot of it.
"jack of all trades, master of none"
It's important to be good with a lot of things but it's essential to be brilliant at one. I think the same applies for singular moments in history that are important never to forget.
So I dont think the Roman Empire will be needing us until the US jumps on Iran's sandcastles all over again"Gee thanks!  | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. It wasn't so much the culture rather than it was the deviation from the culture after the Versailles Treaty isolated Germany and left it to fester in what was essentially a collapsed economy. Desperation twists people to extremes. That is why (for those that mention genocide and 4th reichs) the likes of Angela Merkel are trying to help Europe recover with its economy, because so much civil war around the world is not to be sniffed at. If anyone knows how to prevent a world war, it would be them." Fully agree with you about the consequences of the Versailles treaty which (mostly at the insistence of the French) ground Germany's nose into the dirt, which led to the disastrous Weimar republic. For Hitler a bankrupted nation with no clear leadership and a total loss of national pride was a fertile recruiting ground. Also after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution in Russia there was a great fear of communism spreading westwards, and many Germans (as well as a large number of other Europeans at the time) saw Hitler as the only answer. Maybe if things had been only slightly different in the late 20's or early 30's we could be sat here now talking about Ernst Thälmann as the instigator of the holocaust. As leader of the German communist party he had close links with Soviet Russia and Stalin who was just as much of a Jew hater as Hitler. Make no mistake, a communist Germany allied to Stalins Russia would have swallowed up Poland and would have cast its eyes west in much the same way as Hitler. As for today and Merkel. She has just had (by German standards) a comfortable win (although not overall majority) in last weeks elections and as German Chancellor she will put German interests first. However she has been slightly chastened by the more than 2 million votes cast for the AFD party (a sort of German UKIP)and I think she will have to be mindful of this before agreeing to any more German money being thrown away to prop up the Euro | |||
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" Hey, you know Hitler had a brother in Liverpool? lol You're right. I said somewhere else that the likes of Nazism can come in any form, even Labour and Conservative (look at Tony Blair jumping on the Middle Eastern bandwagon despite the country's mass protests). It's oppression in the most extreme form and yet it can be birthed from a minority ideal under the weight of oppression to begin with. I remember correctly that Scouse comedian and writer Alexei Sayle was also a practicing communist during Thatcher's years." yes hitler actually lived in liverpool for a short period i beleve?. alexie sayle,now he was not really a comedian was he?,just used to shout loud to make us believe he was saying dsomething informative or funny,is he still practising communist?,he was very quite with nothing to say during labours disasterrous 13 years so he must have really believed the bliar/brown downward spiral was the forward?.  | |||
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"I think a lot of people miss the obvious when looking at the rise of the Nazi's and WW2 I do not think it could have been avoided no matter how lenient the armistice had been. The simple fact is (with 1 exception][Japan]) that it has taken the total destruction of one sides power-base and will to fight to end a war. This did not happen in 1918 and so the war in Europe 39/45 was nothing more than the great war round 2. " WW1 part 2 is something I've believed for a long time. | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died.Onny, you are right to a point. If the International Brigade had been larger, better funded and equipped and the Democrats had beaten Franco, Hitler would have been stopped. But not permanently, in fact such a setback could very well have changed the outcome of WW2. Many believe that had Hitler held back for 6 months and continued the buildup of forces before launching an offensive in spring 40 we would have lost. Dont forget its the 6 months of the phony war that gave us time to build the planes that stopped the invasion of Briton Hitler would at least have been delayed, as you say, but he might actually have been put off altogether. Re planes that stopped the invasion. There's a (modern) view that it wasn't just the planes, it was a basic miscalculation at the German end about how many planes constituted a squadron. They assumed an RAF squadron was the same size as a Luftwaffe squadron and that was a fatal error when it came to the losses they reckoned they could suffer and still win." You miss the point, there are always mismatches between forces and between unit sizes and names (I'm an ex commando, I came up against some of the Argi's in commando 602 sq, not quite the same as us but same name). If Hitler had not attacked Poland in Sept 39 there would not have been a 6 month halt to overwinter. There would not have been 6 months to start to rearm (remember we made a policy decision not to rearm in case Her Hitler thought it a provocation!) We would have been genuinely up shit creak rather than pulling ourselves out of it! Hitler and the German army rank and file ere hell bent on war, they did not believe they lost WW1 they thought their leaders sold them out and they had unfinished business. Nothing would have diverted them from war, robbing and killing the Jews was a bonus. | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died." True Onny, but you must remember that most (if not all) of the International Brigade was made up of communists, and to many at that time the fear of communism was just as great as the fear of fascism. Maybe that is why they didn't get the wide support they wanted. | |||
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"Most modern states have at some point committed the most horrible crimrs. And I include the UK in that. The Nazi's industrialised killing. They took it to a new level of efficiency and effectiveness. Genocide and brutality still go on. Africa and the middle east getting it at the moment. For me the saddest thing is we never learn. "
Right on...year 2013, cue to the atrocities committed towards Iraqis, Afghanis, Palestinians...incidentally these atrocities are committed by nations that used to point the finger at Germany....'nough said | |||
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"WW1 part 2 is something I've believed for a long time." Part 3 coming to a country near you soon...... | |||
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" Re planes that stopped the invasion. There's a (modern) view that it wasn't just the planes, it was a basic miscalculation at the German end about how many planes constituted a squadron. They assumed an RAF squadron was the same size as a Luftwaffe squadron and that was a fatal error when it came to the losses they reckoned they could suffer and still win. You miss the point, there are always mismatches between forces and between unit sizes and names (I'm an ex commando, I came up against some of the Argi's in commando 602 sq, not quite the same as us but same name). ........" Making that comparison when you know about it is one thing. If, for the sake of argument, a Luftwaffe squadron was 12 planes and an RAF squadron was 20 planes, (when Goring did the sums, he looked at squadrons v squadrons - not planes v planes) and got it badly wrong. That error gave us a huge advantage before even firing a shot in anger. | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment, if not have a little read, its genuine and has been repeated many times always with the same results. It will help you understand and make you realize that making people do things they normally wouldn't only requires the right uniform. We are all very easy to manipulate." I had never heard of the Milgram experiment but always said that given the right conditions anyone could end up like the Nazis. Dehumanise a race, tell the people guarding them there are no consequences for cruel treatment or death and see what happens... I'm not saying all people but a hell of a lot... And remember the Russians killed far more of their own people than the Germans ever did... | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment, if not have a little read, its genuine and has been repeated many times always with the same results. It will help you understand and make you realize that making people do things they normally wouldn't only requires the right uniform. We are all very easy to manipulate. I had never heard of the Milgram experiment but always said that given the right conditions anyone could end up like the Nazis. Dehumanise a race, tell the people guarding them there are no consequences for cruel treatment or death and see what happens... I'm not saying all people but a hell of a lot... And remember the Russians killed far more of their own people than the Germans ever did..." Was that the same as the Stanford University experiment? | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died. True Onny, but you must remember that most (if not all) of the International Brigade was made up of communists, and to many at that time the fear of communism was just as great as the fear of fascism. Maybe that is why they didn't get the wide support they wanted. " Most (like my maternal Grandfather) were Communists I agree but many had also fought in WWI, didn't want to see it repeated and felt that by stopping Franco they could, if not stop, then at least delay Hitler for a while. | |||
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" Hey, you know Hitler had a brother in Liverpool? lol You're right. I said somewhere else that the likes of Nazism can come in any form, even Labour and Conservative (look at Tony Blair jumping on the Middle Eastern bandwagon despite the country's mass protests). It's oppression in the most extreme form and yet it can be birthed from a minority ideal under the weight of oppression to begin with. I remember correctly that Scouse comedian and writer Alexei Sayle was also a practicing communist during Thatcher's years. yes hitler actually lived in liverpool for a short period i beleve?. alexie sayle,now he was not really a comedian was he?,just used to shout loud to make us believe he was saying dsomething informative or funny,is he still practising communist?,he was very quite with nothing to say during labours disasterrous 13 years so he must have really believed the bliar/brown downward spiral was the forward?. "I dont think he ever meant to be a comedian, no lol, but he had his moments and at least he never clung onto fame like many. I don't think he practices anything in the way of politics now aside from reminiscing of the effect his protests had on what many people might refer to as the Thatcher Regime. Regardless, I feel as though enjoying any prime minister's downward spiral has become a part of English culture. It seems we can never get shut of them quickly enough. But then when you refuse to be anywhere but at the fore of the world stage as a country, you tend to make more enemies than friends, especially in your own ranks. | |||
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" Re planes that stopped the invasion. There's a (modern) view that it wasn't just the planes, it was a basic miscalculation at the German end about how many planes constituted a squadron. They assumed an RAF squadron was the same size as a Luftwaffe squadron and that was a fatal error when it came to the losses they reckoned they could suffer and still win. You miss the point, there are always mismatches between forces and between unit sizes and names (I'm an ex commando, I came up against some of the Argi's in commando 602 sq, not quite the same as us but same name). ........ Making that comparison when you know about it is one thing. If, for the sake of argument, a Luftwaffe squadron was 12 planes and an RAF squadron was 20 planes, (when Goring did the sums, he looked at squadrons v squadrons - not planes v planes) and got it badly wrong. That error gave us a huge advantage before even firing a shot in anger." Yes, and don't forget radar and the observer corps who managed to give us (just) enough warning. Also don't forget our greatest ally in the Battle of Britain. Adolf Hitler himself who in a fit of pique turned the Luftwaffe on London giving the RAF a bit of breathing space. | |||
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" ............ Yes, and don't forget radar and the observer corps who managed to give us (just) enough warning. ..............." And don't forget the NAAFI ladies who made the tea. | |||
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"For all people suggest WWII could have been avoided if this or that had happened, the one thing which could have put Hitler off his plans for German expansion is if Franco had been given a good kicking in the late 30s. Too few people who saw war coming were prepared to go to Spain and fight for democracy - and too many of those who did go died. True Onny, but you must remember that most (if not all) of the International Brigade was made up of communists, and to many at that time the fear of communism was just as great as the fear of fascism. Maybe that is why they didn't get the wide support they wanted. Most (like my maternal Grandfather) were Communists I agree but many had also fought in WWI, didn't want to see it repeated and felt that by stopping Franco they could, if not stop, then at least delay Hitler for a while. " Then again, had the communists prevailed in Spain I don't think it would have much helped the cause of democracy. Communism and democracy are not very compatible. | |||
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" ............ Yes, and don't forget radar and the observer corps who managed to give us (just) enough warning. ............... And don't forget the NAAFI ladies who made the tea." Most important job of the lot. Now where's my German NAAFI wench, come on hurry up with that bloody tea.  | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment, if not have a little read, its genuine and has been repeated many times always with the same results. It will help you understand and make you realize that making people do things they normally wouldn't only requires the right uniform. We are all very easy to manipulate. I had never heard of the Milgram experiment but always said that given the right conditions anyone could end up like the Nazis. Dehumanise a race, tell the people guarding them there are no consequences for cruel treatment or death and see what happens... I'm not saying all people but a hell of a lot... And remember the Russians killed far more of their own people than the Germans ever did... Was that the same as the Stanford University experiment?" No, but I think the Stanford prison experiment was an extension of the Milgram done for the US military in the hope of proving the original finding inaccurate as the "controller" was a "doctor" in the original experiment. | |||
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"Most modern states have at some point committed the most horrible crimrs. And I include the UK in that. The Nazi's industrialised killing. They took it to a new level of efficiency and effectiveness. Genocide and brutality still go on. Africa and the middle east getting it at the moment. For me the saddest thing is we never learn. " | |||
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"Bastards" most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment, if not have a little read, its genuine and has been repeated many times always with the same results. It will help you understand and make you realize that making people do things they normally wouldn't only requires the right uniform. We are all very easy to manipulate. I had never heard of the Milgram experiment but always said that given the right conditions anyone could end up like the Nazis. Dehumanise a race, tell the people guarding them there are no consequences for cruel treatment or death and see what happens... I'm not saying all people but a hell of a lot... And remember the Russians killed far more of their own people than the Germans ever did... Was that the same as the Stanford University experiment?No, but I think the Stanford prison experiment was an extension of the Milgram done for the US military in the hope of proving the original finding inaccurate as the "controller" was a "doctor" in the original experiment." I meant was it the same kind of experiment. But thanks for filling me in on the details. Wasn't aware of that. | |||
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"Bastards most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. " I take it you mean in Germany - ? They seem to have gotten the message but in other parts of Europe (including the UK) there's an upsurge of extreme right wing nutters coming out of their holes. A bunch of Flemish fascists even turned up to support the SNP rally last weekend. | |||
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"And don't forget the NAAFI ladies who made the tea." Sod the NAFFI stewed tar... I miss my Sally Army van turning up in the middle of nowhere with the sticky buns and boiling milky coffee heating my frozen hands and scalding all the way down to the pit of my stomach!
Thanks for reminding me of that beautifully simple joy! | |||
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"Bastards most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. " Sadly there are others willing to step into their shoes though | |||
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"Bastards most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. I take it you mean in Germany - ? They seem to have gotten the message but in other parts of Europe (including the UK) there's an upsurge of extreme right wing nutters coming out of their holes. A bunch of Flemish fascists even turned up to support the SNP rally last weekend." The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter" | |||
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"Bastards most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. I take it you mean in Germany - ? They seem to have gotten the message but in other parts of Europe (including the UK) there's an upsurge of extreme right wing nutters coming out of their holes. A bunch of Flemish fascists even turned up to support the SNP rally last weekend. The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter"" And the right label the left as 'lefty liberals'. | |||
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"Bastards most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. I take it you mean in Germany - ? They seem to have gotten the message but in other parts of Europe (including the UK) there's an upsurge of extreme right wing nutters coming out of their holes. A bunch of Flemish fascists even turned up to support the SNP rally last weekend. The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter" And the right label the left as 'lefty liberals'. "But that is true, they are left, and would describe themselves as liberals so it's hardly insulting. But anyone to the right of Trotsky seems to be a nutter these days. | |||
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"Bastards most of the 'Bastards' are at the end of their natural life now.. having lived over there the generations post war take very seriously what went on and strive through education and criminal law to never replicate what went on.. I take it you mean in Germany - ? They seem to have gotten the message but in other parts of Europe (including the UK) there's an upsurge of extreme right wing nutters coming out of their holes. A bunch of Flemish fascists even turned up to support the SNP rally last weekend." History indicates that during hard time the far right seem to flourish, someone needs to be blamed etc.. they are still out there yes, difference is try giving the 'Nazi salute' in Berlin and your feet (rightly so) wont touch the floor.. should be the same over here also.. | |||
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" The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter"" would probably agree on the numbers per se.. but its usually the far right that tend to want to burn down Mosque's or kick fuck out of someone who is a different colour.. granted that some on the left have not been totally innocent but by and large the 'left' is only reacting to a minority who seem intent on chaos and mayhem.. | |||
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"I've got an entire shelf of books. I find it fascinating that a culture which could give us Bach, Wagner and Goethe could also give use death camps, etc. The human condition is so very complex. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment, if not have a little read, its genuine and has been repeated many times always with the same results. It will help you understand and make you realize that making people do things they normally wouldn't only requires the right uniform. We are all very easy to manipulate. I had never heard of the Milgram experiment but always said that given the right conditions anyone could end up like the Nazis. Dehumanise a race, tell the people guarding them there are no consequences for cruel treatment or death and see what happens... I'm not saying all people but a hell of a lot... And remember the Russians killed far more of their own people than the Germans ever did... Was that the same as the Stanford University experiment?No, but I think the Stanford prison experiment was an extension of the Milgram done for the US military in the hope of proving the original finding inaccurate as the "controller" was a "doctor" in the original experiment. I meant was it the same kind of experiment. But thanks for filling me in on the details. Wasn't aware of that." Learned about them in training, how to impose your will on others, how to get others to impose your will on third parties, how to inflame situation and take advantage of situations. Lots of dirty stuff. Of course knowing how to do things means you know what to look in situations, and what not to do when attempting to defuse situations. We spent a lot of time examining how tyrants gained and held power even when it seem as if it must have been obvious to all that they were being led to disaster. Forgotten most of it, but I'll soon get my bus pass and Viagra allowance | |||
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" The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter" would probably agree on the numbers per se.. but its usually the far right that tend to want to burn down Mosque's or kick fuck out of someone who is a different colour.. granted that some on the left have not been totally innocent but by and large the 'left' is only reacting to a minority who seem intent on chaos and mayhem.." You are correct it is the "far" right who who are the racists Etc. But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" | |||
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" The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter" would probably agree on the numbers per se.. but its usually the far right that tend to want to burn down Mosque's or kick fuck out of someone who is a different colour.. granted that some on the left have not been totally innocent but by and large the 'left' is only reacting to a minority who seem intent on chaos and mayhem.. You are correct it is the "far" right who who are the racists Etc. But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" " And anyone who quotes human rights is a 'do-gooder' or a 'left-wing loony'. | |||
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" ...... But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" " It's like the old song 'love and marriage'. | |||
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" The number of right wing nutters is equally balanced by the number of left wing nutters. I think Einstein had a theory about it somewhere. Problem is the left tend to accuse anyone who doesn't follow their agenda as a "right wing nutter" would probably agree on the numbers per se.. but its usually the far right that tend to want to burn down Mosque's or kick fuck out of someone who is a different colour.. granted that some on the left have not been totally innocent but by and large the 'left' is only reacting to a minority who seem intent on chaos and mayhem.. You are correct it is the "far" right who who are the racists Etc. But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" And anyone who quotes human rights is a 'do-gooder' or a 'left-wing loony'." For me that would depend on which "human rights" are being quoted. While the human rights bill was passed with all the best intentions, even the most left wing thinkers must be aware of and concerned about the widespread abuse, which demeans the whole principle. Family life with a cat  come on get real. | |||
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" ...... But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" It's like the old song 'love and marriage'." So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? | |||
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" ...... But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" It's like the old song 'love and marriage'. So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels?" I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries. | |||
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"And anyone who quotes human rights is a 'do-gooder' or a 'left-wing loony'." Problem is when main stream politics is so far up its own politically correct arse that criminals "human rights" become more important than victims or the safety of society, then extremists will move in and exploit the situation. I for one am finding it galling that the only people voicing some of my concerns are bigoted right wing racist xenophobes! | |||
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" ...... But I do get a bit angry when anyone who is concerned about immigration or curbing the powers of the EU. is instantly branded a "right wing nutter" It's like the old song 'love and marriage'. So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries." Not exactly an answer but typical left. | |||
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" ...... So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries. Not exactly an answer but typical left." No, seriously, it's not for me to decide if a Spanish/ German couple should or shouldn't be allowed to live in Spain, Germany or the UK. That's their choice. The EU says so. | |||
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"Bastards" very odd | |||
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" ...... So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries. Not exactly an answer but typical left. No, seriously, it's not for me to decide if a Spanish/ German couple should or shouldn't be allowed to live in Spain, Germany or the UK. That's their choice. The EU says so." If it's not for you to decide, you are not troubled by it... and because the EU says so... So an unelected person decides that a person who has never paid tax in this country can come to this country use the NHS get money and housing that someone from the UK needs and you are ok with that? When an unelected person in the EU decides that they don't like Jews and that they should all be rounded up, you'll be ok with that because the EU says so.... Now we know why history repeats its self... | |||
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" ...... If it's not for you to decide, you are not troubled by it... and because the EU says so... So an unelected person decides that a person who has never paid tax in this country can come to this country use the NHS get money and housing that someone from the UK needs and you are ok with that? ........ " You'll no doubt be aware that that's not what happened. Decisions on expansion were made by member states, not bureaucrats. | |||
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"It was bureaucrats that drafted the rules and regulations regarding the right to travel and settle freely within the EU. I for one are not happy that someone who has taked a driving test in Romania can now drive permanently in the UK on that licence... " But it was member governments which agreed to it, sometimes by qualified majority, sometimes by lack of absolute veto. All of us can drive in Romania on a UK licence, should we choose. " I digress. The point is you are happy to be dictated to by unelected people who don't care about the individual country and only about their ideal regardless of others... That is how dictatorships get started..." See above. Member states vote to accept or decline proposed legislation - a bit like the Houses of Parliament voted on legislation drafted by Commons' staff. | |||
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"Just as brutal as what is happening today in other country's , just watching Schindler's list and Lest not forget "Yes look at the genocide in Palestine, some people soon forgot the horrors or war and become the aggressors themselves killing innocent people in return. | |||
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" ...... So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries. Not exactly an answer but typical left. No, seriously, it's not for me to decide if a Spanish/ German couple should or shouldn't be allowed to live in Spain, Germany or the UK. That's their choice. The EU says so." That may be up to the EU but as you are having a bit of a chip at my status you need to be put right (not left )
Firstly Mrs is German so fully entitled to live in Germany with or without the EU. Mr is British and fully entitled to be resident in Germany (in GERMAN law) by way of having a German partner for over 8 years, I could be American or Chinese and the rules would be the same in these circumstances.
Secondly we are entitled to own a holiday home in Spain under SPANISH law as are thousands of Russians and many other non EU citizens.
Should Britain or Germany secede from the EU the only difference to us would be we might have to occasionally show our passports.
As for our feelings about Britain and Germany leaving, for me (and her) it is only a means to an end. The ultimate goal is to see the current undemocratic, unaccountable, spendthrift, corrupt, communist, and down right criminal version of the EU destroyed and a new association of nation states take its place. | |||
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" ...... So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries. Not exactly an answer but typical left. No, seriously, it's not for me to decide if a Spanish/ German couple should or shouldn't be allowed to live in Spain, Germany or the UK. That's their choice. The EU says so. If it's not for you to decide, you are not troubled by it... and because the EU says so... So an unelected person decides that a person who has never paid tax in this country can come to this country use the NHS get money and housing that someone from the UK needs and you are ok with that? When an unelected person in the EU decides that they don't like Jews and that they should all be rounded up, you'll be ok with that because the EU says so.... Now we know why history repeats its self... " | |||
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"Just as brutal as what is happening today in other country's , just watching Schindler's list and Lest not forget Yes look at the genocide in Palestine, some people soon forgot the horrors or war and become the aggressors themselves killing innocent people in return." | |||
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"Bastards" Not just the Germans. Unfortunately, its the very worst of human nature. If you go back far enough, the English persecuted the Jews. Of course, its not only the Jews who have suffered this kind of treatment either. | |||
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" ...... So you are happy with uncontrolled immigration and being governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? I stick up for the rights of EU citizens to settle/ work in other EU countries. Not exactly an answer but typical left. No, seriously, it's not for me to decide if a Spanish/ German couple should or shouldn't be allowed to live in Spain, Germany or the UK. That's their choice. The EU says so. If it's not for you to decide, you are not troubled by it... and because the EU says so... So an unelected person decides that a person who has never paid tax in this country can come to this country use the NHS get money and housing that someone from the UK needs and you are ok with that? When an unelected person in the EU decides that they don't like Jews and that they should all be rounded up, you'll be ok with that because the EU says so.... Now we know why history repeats its self... " Well said
I would add that the EU as already started the engine to maybe go down that road. In a recent speech the communist president of the EU commision Barroso stated that "populism" (aka democracy) should not be allowed to stop the EU achieving its goals, and the EU should be able to intervene in member states (notice he never uses the word country) that elect an "Illiberal" (his word) government. March 1933 coming to a political party near you. | |||
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"Barrosso hates Cameron. That's fine in my book." I'm not a lover of Cameron myself, but I save my real hatred for the Labour party. As for Barroso (one S) he just hates democracy. | |||
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