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Masculinity

By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

What is it? Does it exist? Should the concept exist? This musing is inspired by the "Femininity" thread we posted yesterday and which generated some very interesting and insightful conversation. We thought, "why not muse on masculinity too?"

Mr KC doesn't consider himself to be particularly masculine. He doesn't like football or rugby or most sports. He's a miniature hobbyist. He's not muscular in build but he's very tall. He's quite a quiet, introspective person and doesn't like conflict, although if threatened, he will defend himself and people he holds dear. He's also incredibly intelligent, kind, generous and THE most supportive husband and father. But he's still not considered "masculine" by societal standards. I (Mrs KC) also happen to think he's handsome as hell and in a bedroom situation, he's a dominant character, quite different to how he comes across in day to day life.

So, what IS masculinity? What does it mean in the 21st century? Why are some men not seen as masculine? The very word is defined as "having qualities traditionally considered to be suitable for a man," so should we even be striving for masculinity? Is it reinforcing gender stereotypes?

Discuss!

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By *ellinever70Woman over a year ago

Ayrshire

I don't really have an answer

But if he's not considered masculine, is he considered feminine by default? Or something else?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Here before the fun starts

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I don't really have an answer

But if he's not considered masculine, is he considered feminine by default? Or something else?"

This is an excellent question. To us, he's a person. It doesn't matter about masculinity and to me (Mrs), he's certainly not feminine at all. We wouldn't apply such labels to ourselves but society does.

Hence the musing, really!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 16/04/22 18:16:31]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't really have an answer

But if he's not considered masculine, is he considered feminine by default? Or something else?

And there we have the problem with seeing gender and its ‘associated characteristics’ as binary. "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have no idea what the answer is. I’m just me, I don’t think about what makes me, me.

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By *icassolifelikeMan over a year ago

Luton

If people care then that’s their problem. You be you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Masculinity is scratching your bollocks and sniffing your fingers without giving a fuck who’s sees it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not got a clue heck I ware dress and do 500 sit ups with 30kg on my cheast

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

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By *ora the explorerWoman over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

"Here before the fun starts

. Bookmarking just to observe

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?

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By *hubby CoupleCouple over a year ago

Essex

Masculinity is a man (Parent) who stands by his children no matter the circumstances

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

I like this Jonny

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Grrrrr

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?"

That was my last serious post of the day.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?

That was my last serious post of the day."

Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?

That was my last serious post of the day.

Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?"

Only two to be fair.

The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Can i just be a quiet cave man please

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?

That was my last serious post of the day.

Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?

Only two to be fair.

The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers."

You’re going soft. Your masculinity is fading.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Never been one for social norms. Am I masculine? Probably not. Only thing I am certain is that I am Male, and I have protective streak.

I will keep secrets, and I will listen to the problem and offer advice, wether it's heeded or not is down on them.

I don't like sports, though if it's a toss between Rugby or Football I would sooner Rugby.

I don't really drink, but when I do I can usually hold my own.

So what does that make me?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?

That was my last serious post of the day.

Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?

Only two to be fair.

The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers.

You’re going soft. Your masculinity is fading."

That’s what you think.

I just punched a camel.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man.

The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society.

Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven.

I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits.

Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ.

Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?

That was my last serious post of the day.

Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?

Only two to be fair.

The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers.

You’re going soft. Your masculinity is fading.

That’s what you think.

I just punched a camel."

Now it’s got the hump. I’ll see myself out.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

What are supposedly masculine traits then? What does society deem "masculine"?

What are the origins of this societal construct? Yesterday, we established that the construct of "femininity" was largely based on 19th century expectations for middle/upper class women, generally of a white race. Is masculinity similarly derived? Or are there different origins?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think old perceptions of masculinity still prevail in society, but increasingly less so. Classic traits - Stiff upper lip, grin and bear it, “I’m alright”, not showing weakness.

I gave up drinking 4 years ago, working in a male-dominated commercial environment where it was expected that you’d be drinking copious amounts of alcohol with any client meal. The grief I got from colleagues/Co-workers! I even had one guy - a hardcore gym-going, status-driven, bling-oriented twat - who thought masculinity was defined by how much you drank. He even went so far as to suggest I was a “homo” for not drinking.

Gratefully there seems to be less of that nowadays.

Also, changes in working habits are allowing fathers to be more “present” at home, working flexibly, in ways they weren’t before. This is helping break down traditional mother/father roles, I think, which is gnawing away at old perceptions of masculinity.

I think “masculinity” is outdated and I don’t consider myself as conforming to old standards of it - but my own version of it is of a man that looks after himself physically (health focussed, not ab-focussed), can apply himself to many different skills, is emotionally intelligent, has a wide range of hobbies/interests, is well read, is calm/focussed, can adapt to situations. I doubt many traditionalists share this view!

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I think old perceptions of masculinity still prevail in society, but increasingly less so. Classic traits - Stiff upper lip, grin and bear it, “I’m alright”, not showing weakness.

Gratefully there seems to be less of that nowadays.

Love this, thank you for sharing!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To me masculinity or masculinities are not really real. And I reject them especially on the basis of the fact that notions of masculinity are based on ideas of gender as binary. But for the purpose of the post, I guess following on from what Jonny said, ‘masculinity’ differs. It differ based on cultures. Based on regions. I call it masculinities because there’s so many different ones.

I talked in the femininity thread about race and I apologise once again all for talking about it here. But growing up and moving through the world, specifically Britain/ London as a Black boy/ Black man has altered the way people in my life have projected onto me what it means to be a man and how I should or should not perform that. Obviously I’ve rejected most of it as I’ve studied and learned but still

I don’t particularly wish to get into the cultural differences that I feel exist here because would probably be way to exhausting and triggering for a weekend but some other time I’m sure.

I also feel as though what it means to be a man is strange. I am cis. But I also feel constrained by pressures on how men should dress/ act/ be. Experimenting with gender performance is a dangerous sphere I think for men (dangers existing from other men predominantly). I do feel as though my desire to do these things doesn’t make me any less cis, I just feel as though being a man is too rigidly defined and should not be so. And I guess (I’m rambling here) being cis is even weird because I think similar to something Swing said yesterday it’s more that I don’t feel not cis. I wonder though if that’s just a consequence of growing up as a boy/ man and then reading and studying perspectives that taught me that gender is a construct and that challenge it as a binary construct. Or if I’m just sentimental holding onto this identity because society makes me feel like not being man would make you something else. But how can you be something else if you don’t even know what being a man is? Right? Idk I’m talking shit by this point. If you read this far then lol you must really value my opinion

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By *ealitybitesMan over a year ago

Belfast

I've honesty no idea what the definition of masculinity is supposed to be today because like so many things it changes with the weather.

My version of masculinity is exactly as it has always been. Treating everyone as equals, being blind to race, creed, colour and gender and not being swayed by popular opinion or peer pressure.

I've never smoked or tasted alcohol despite being surrounded by those who did and having them tell me I wasn't a real man if I didn't drink.

I am a fiercely loyal friend, I open doors for others(not just women) and I expect nothing in return when I offer a hand or a shoulder to lean on.

If any of that is old fashioned and out of touch I've been called worse and I won't be changing.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine.

Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 16/04/22 18:54:09]

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Thank you the three of you above for very interesting and thoughtful contributions. Absolutely loving these insights

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Even the solitary farmer has to go to market, where he meets other men and masculinity is clear and present. If you need more masculinity in and of a characteristic type choose a profession, sport , pastime, pursuit. You can always work on your masculinity. It's no different to playing an instrument, you have to practise. If you fail, you learn, you meet more accomplished men and learn from them. It doesn't stop.

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By *annaBeStrongMan over a year ago

Strong leader, confident, good moral compass, physically able. Does what’s right and what’s needed, not just what he wants. Doesn’t let emotions effect his decisions. Logical.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending."

Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Even the solitary farmer has to go to market, where he meets other men and masculinity is clear and present. If you need more masculinity in and of a characteristic type choose a profession, sport , pastime, pursuit. You can always work on your masculinity. It's no different to playing an instrument, you have to practise. If you fail, you learn, you meet more accomplished men and learn from them. It doesn't stop."

Is this really necessary? Is it not masculine to paint teeny tiny soldiers and ships, for example?

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Strong leader, confident, good moral compass, physically able. Does what’s right and what’s needed, not just what he wants. Doesn’t let emotions effect his decisions. Logical. "

By that definition, Mr KC is über masculine. Interesting...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yes that would be his pursuit. Involving other fellows.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To me masculinity or masculinities are not really real. And I reject them especially on the basis of the fact that notions of masculinity are based on ideas of gender as binary. But for the purpose of the post, I guess following on from what Jonny said, ‘masculinity’ differs. It differ based on cultures. Based on regions. I call it masculinities because there’s so many different ones.

I don’t particularly wish to get into the cultural differences that I feel exist here because would probably be way to exhausting and triggering for a weekend but some other time I’m sure.

I’d love to discuss cultural differences in perceptions of masculinity.

Also the issue of choosing our sexual identity as being different from our gender at birth.

I think that the lines between being male (which to me had a different connotation than “being masculine”) and female (as being different from feminine) are blurring anyway, and quite rightly in a Society that supports equality.

But that doesn’t mean we have our differences and traits/idiosyncrasies that tend to be either male or female.

Fascinating conversation - good post, OP

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.

Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called"

I’ve just watched it for the first time. It was great until Chuck Norris got chinned. That would never happen.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

I don’t particularly wish to get into the cultural differences that I feel exist here because would probably be way to exhausting and triggering for a weekend but some other time I’m sure.

That all makes sense.

Your personal perceptions on masculinity will often change over time, based on your environment, your life experiences, the people around you and how you 'evolve' as you get older.

I grew up taught that masculinity was an important and desired trait and characteristic to have. Keeping physically fit, playing contact sports, indulging in the stereotypical male behaviour at the time of drinking, smoking, fighting, casual sex as often as possible, pissing about in cars and going on lads holidays etc. So I tried my best to fit in because that's what 'men' did. They weren't interested in the arts, culture, reading or anything creative or 'alternative'.

As I got older and particularly through my uni days I got to experience a different world. I moved away from sport and anything fitness related, still drank but to be social rather than just for the sake of it, still smoked but because I enjoyed it rather than to appear 'cool' or 'tough' as I'd done when in my teens. Still chased women but again because I enjoyed it rather than so I could show off to my mates and brag about conquests. The need to fit in to a stereotype had gone.

A decade or so on I really couldn't have given a shit how I was perceived by others in any sense of masculinity. I'd lost all interest in comparing myself to others either physically or in terms of behaviour or attitude. I became much more tolerant and understanding of those living their lives outside of conventional 'norms' and far less tolerant of those that felt the need to confirm to traditional notions of how they should live/act, especially when they tried to force those ideas on others. And the older I've become the less I've cared about or seen as important the need to fit into any definitions at all.

Be who you want to be, live how you want and never try to fit in just to conform to someone else's ideas. The sooner you manage that the happier you'll generally be.

If you can go through life living however you want to, whilst managing at all times to be the least bit cuntish to others as possible, then you'll have lived a worthwhile life.

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By *os19Man over a year ago

Edmonton

At home and at work I am considered a masculine guy I enjoy sports , gambling and the company of ladies.However alcohol is not something that I enjoy nor do I smoke.On Fabs I have been told that I am a very masculine alpha male who could get most bi , bi curious , gay , tv / ts to do what I want them to do but since I am a straight guy this is something that is not going to happen.

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By *emorefridaCouple over a year ago

La la land

I used to go the mart as a female, and I now work in a male orientated career. I don't think it is masculinity that I encounter, it's just social norms that have evolved over centuries or time. I can work effectively and be part of the team with an all male group, I don't become more manly I'm just me.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

I've been contemplating on the two men who I have most respected in life - my Grandad and Mr KC.

My Grandad was loving, caring and immensely generous. He was also very talented as a musician. He served in the Army from the age of 14. He worked every hour God sent to keep his family comfortable. He also kept a stiff upper lip - I don't recall ever seeing him show any emotions that might be considered "negative", other than occasional anger. He reportedly did not cry when his youngest (and dearly loved) daughter was killed in a road accident. He did not cry when Grandma died. Despite his outward lack of emotion, I know he was deeply affected by both events (and many other difficult events in his life). He boxed in the Army, but I never once got the impression he was a fighter (though similarly to Mr KC, he would defend if attacked).

Mr KC I have described, but would add, he's a very "modern" man. Caring, a hands on dad, doesn't put his nose out of joint that I'm the main income earner. Since my disability started, he has done the vast majority of the housework and taken on tons of extra things to keep our family running on an even keel.

Two very different men, but so similar in so many ways. Yet, my Grandad would probably be considered fairly masculine and Mr KC probably not. I find this quite interesting

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"I have no idea what the answer is. I’m just me, I don’t think about what makes me, me.

You are very manly

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine.

Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules. "

It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think

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By *emorefridaCouple over a year ago

La la land

I think masculinity in the same way as I femininity it's all hogwash. I'm sure I never heard my great grandparents say oh so and so is masculine or feminine. But maybe it's because I'm from a farming background and we all worked physically hard and demanding jobs. That kind of thing just wasn't important.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 16/04/22 19:16:07]

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I think masculinity in the same way as I femininity it's all hogwash. I'm sure I never heard my great grandparents say oh so and so is masculine or feminine. But maybe it's because I'm from a farming background and we all worked physically hard and demanding jobs. That kind of thing just wasn't important.

We agree. There's so much discussion in current discourse about toxic masculinity and also of the qualities of femininity, which suggests at least some people think it's a "thing" and important to them. I wonder, are there certain cultures that prize sohcalled masculine (or feminine) traits more than others? If so, which ones?

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

"I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine.

Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules.

It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think

That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles.

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By *emorefridaCouple over a year ago

La la land

My two grandads were farmers, but completely different men. One was a bare knuckle fighter in his spare time, used to drink, follow sports and was a mountain of a man. The other was a slight framed man, didn't bother with sport and was deacon of his chapel. They both did the same physical demanding job. Neither would have argued one was more masculine than the other. I think it would be a very strange concept to them both.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Talking serious isnt a strength and im not the brightest button in the room but that word masculine seems to be caught up in so much negativity in the world these days i just wanted to say being a manly man is fucking awesome

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think

That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles. "

And those who are not affected by that are allowed not to worry about it if they want to.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine.

Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules.

It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think

That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles. "

Which roles and what consequences?

Genuinely curious as to your thoughts and logic.....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I can only answer from my own perspective but for me masculinity is about him being in touch with himself, being comfortable with who he is having that inner self confidence, it makes me feel safe, protected and loved and him not being afraid to show it

I don't necessarily link it to gender or him being a 'man' or linked into what is considered manly sports/activities by mainstream society.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think

That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles.

And those who are not affected by that are allowed not to worry about it if they want to."

I'm not sure anyone is worrying about it here. We intended to stimulate a discussion around the concept of masculinity, as we did yesterday around femininity. Both masculinity and femininity are often mentioned on here, with various apparent stereotypes and defined traits. We were curious to explore these things further, as two individuals who do not conform to "traditional" masculine or feminine stereotypes (and who don't care that we do/don't).

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"Talking serious isnt a strength and im not the brightest button in the room but that word masculine seems to be caught up in so much negativity in the world these days i just wanted to say being a manly man is fucking awesome

Manly men are awesome

Sadly everything is caught up in negativity, in the UK at least.

Whinging poms really is a thing.

Toxic masculinity is terrible, as is toxic femininity.

But men, women and others being who and what they are generally isn't.

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"I'm not sure anyone is worrying about it here. We intended to stimulate a discussion around the concept of masculinity, as we did yesterday around femininity. Both masculinity and femininity are often mentioned on here, with various apparent stereotypes and defined traits. We were curious to explore these things further, as two individuals who do not conform to "traditional" masculine or feminine stereotypes (and who don't care that we do/don't)."

I am fully aware of that, I wasn't calling anyone names and need to be told off

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

I am fully aware of that, I wasn't calling anyone names and need to be told off

And no telling off was implied. Just reiterating the intention behind the original post, that's all

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"And no telling off was implied. Just reiterating the intention behind the original post, that's all

Which I had understood fully. But I'll be off now

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By *tephTV67TV/TS over a year ago

Cheshire

Well as one of the most masculine men on the site I can give you an insight.

I have boxed in the ring, joined the army, bungee jumped, rode fast motorbikes and a decent car, rock climbing, worked on a building site and bakery, run a couple of marathons and several other distance races, survived a heart attack, fathered three children and been divorced. I enjoy sport both watching and competing. So the epitome of a masculine man.

Non of the above scared or defeated me.

But putting on a dress, makeup and wig. Then walking down a street to go into a bar to socialise is the most scary thing I have ever done. Try walking in heels lads

But even though I’m quite masculine as a man, due to my need to crossdress all of the above is muted. How can you be a ‘real man’ if you enjoy wearing a dress ?

Not sure if this answers your question Op, but it’s another take on what makes a masculine man.

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By *oeBeansMan over a year ago

Derby

I think the term of masculinity is as broad as it's ever been. To me, masculinity is defined by doing what you want regardless of what fellow male peers may think and being comfortable in doing that. It's also masculine to be able to pick up a friend when they're down and being there for your family when they need you, not just financially but in person as well.

I could he wrong though and although we may still have a long way to go, we've also come a long way too

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Well as one of the most masculine men on the site I can give you an insight.

Non of the above scared or defeated me.

But putting on a dress, makeup and wig. Then walking down a street to go into a bar to socialise is the most scary thing I have ever done. Try walking in heels lads

But even though I’m quite masculine as a man, due to my need to crossdress all of the above is muted. How can you be a ‘real man’ if you enjoy wearing a dress ?

Not sure if this answers your question Op, but it’s another take on what makes a masculine man. "

Thank you for your contribution. There's not one "right" answer to the original question. With the varied and interesting contributions on here, we shall learn from each other.

And don't worry, I can't walk in heels either. I struggle in flats

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I think the term of masculinity is as broad as it's ever been. To me, masculinity is defined by doing what you want regardless of what fellow male peers may think and being comfortable in doing that. It's also masculine to be able to pick up a friend when they're down and being there for your family when they need you, not just financially but in person as well.

I could he wrong though and although we may still have a long way to go, we've also come a long way too

Your perspective cannot be wrong, because it is your perspective. We all have different perspectives on these questions.

I like your description very much

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By *agicM53XMan over a year ago

Croydon

I'm not gonna attach masculinity to any social norm or constract (not everything has to be linked to society)...for me this is simple and is more physiological in nature, the more testosterone you have the more masculine you are...and the less testosterone you have the less masculine you are, and has nothing to do with what a man should do in society, because honestly I love cooking and cleaning ( being very theraputical for me), and I am still masculine as f%$# when I do those things

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I'm not gonna attach masculinity to any social norm or constract (not everything has to be linked to society)...for me this is simple and is more physiological in nature, the more testosterone you have the more masculine you are...and the less testosterone you have the less masculine you are, and has nothing to do with what a man should do in society, because honestly I love cooking and cleaning ( being very theraputical for me), and I am still masculine as f%$# when I do those things "

Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts

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By *agicM53XMan over a year ago

Croydon

Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts

Muscle density, body hair, voice...many physical traits can be linked to an elevated level of testosterone. And sure enough there is also the factor of synthetic testosterone, such as TRT or even steroids, but that's a whole different conversation.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts

Men with physiologically low testosterone are usually infertile or at least struggle reproduction wise. This is because testosterone has an important role in the maturation of spermatids into spermatozoa.

Considering the build of my husband, his almost total lack of body hair and naturally low muscle physique, you'd expect him to be in the low testosterone group, right? Except he's not. His T was tested when we were looking to conceive and it was perfectly within the normal range.

Nowt so weird as human beings and their bodies

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By *lderButStillFunMan over a year ago

Crawley

You know I feel I'm not masculine. Not into sport, not muscular at all. But if I'm told I'm not a "man" I have to reply I work hard every day to provide for my children. That I think makes someone more of a man than how many hours he puts in at the gym or anything else society deems as masculine

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By *agicM53XMan over a year ago

Croydon

Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts

Nowt so weird as human beings and their bodies

Muscle density and body hair are just two physical traits...there are dozens

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Thank you everyone for fantastic contributions on this

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

Masculinity is whatever a man chooses it to be. Yes it's a social construct (see femininity thread yesterday) and yes it's a set of list able traits if you want it to be. But like femininity it's more that both of them. It's part of your core psychological make up.

My dad left when I was 6. I was sexually abused by a priest between 10 and 12. The priest told me this is what real men do. So between these two things happening at very critical stages in my life, I had a very strange view of Masculinity.

I was 6 2 by the time I was 12. I was shaving twice a week by then too. A boy in a mans bady. As a teenager I wore clothes that made me stick out. Red velvet platform shoes, fish tail shirts. A lot of black. I made myself an outsider. And of course I found other outsiders and we became family.

Inside me I knew I wasn't a man. Not really. I didn't know how to fix things, I pissed sitting down, cos that's all I had seen growing up. I didn't hang around with the other kids in the area, I didn't know how to Rob a car, roll a joint, smoke a cigarette. I didn't know how to interact with men. I couldn't use a screwdriver. Or know what screws or nails did what jobs. Not really a man.

Other people seen me differently. I didn't bend to peer pressure. I didn't like smoke so I didn't ever take a drag of a cigarette. I was a protector of of my people. I had a quiet way of getting people to do what I wanted to do. I would let people know this is what I wanted and they would do it. Because there was no pressure. No forcing. I was polite, intense, fierce and loved to dance. I wasn't good at it, and I looked weird but I didn't care. It made me happy.

So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity.

As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it.

Growing up consent was a huge part of my life. The priest taught me that. My dad taught me about violence and intimidation, so that was to be avoided, my mum taught me about respect and hard work and being strong even when you just want to curl up and die. My friends taught me about music, life, being part of something bigger and not to be afraid of who you are. They taught me I'm a leader.

In my middle years I found bdsm and a lot of things really fell into place. I had labels for behaviours and extra insight into who I was and why I did what I liked to do. It also highlighted other aspects of Masculinity I wasn't aware of. Subby men are a tough group.

Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me.

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By *eatrice BadinageWoman over a year ago

In a Sparkly Dress

Mr KC is masculine.

Throughout history masculinity has been described as men being heroes to their loved ones. It wasn't until the early 1900's that men started physically fighting to "prove" their masculinity to each other. After that change in society, beards and other testerone related physicalities and related behaviour became the norm, these "opinions" also spawned the rise of the "Butch" lesbian and the "Tomboy".

Greek mythologies masculine hero is Mars for some insight.

When I think of masculinity I am frequently drawn to the historical saying "every girl wants to find a man that treats her as well as her daddy does"

My masculinity hero is my Grandad

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By *ryandseeMan over a year ago

Yorkshire

It's sad though to see sometimes masculinity associated with macho aggressive behaviour. You only need to look at the look and faces of some blokes walking about with the look of someone ready to punch you. As another post mentioned masculinity means different things to different people but always better to be a 'gentleman' than a thug.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I’m just moisturising and then I’ll be back to explain how my masculinity is fairing up under the pressure of society in the modern era…

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By *ou only live onceMan over a year ago

London

Another really interesting thread, KC. I read the one on femininity with interest, though feel more qualified to comment on this one!

As others have said, there's definitely a spectrum, which is (in my mind rightfully) growing all the time. Perhaps more accurately, the spectrum itself is not growing, but society's expectations are (there have always been exceptions to societal "norms", but society's just more accepting/less suspicious of those differences now).

I can only talk of my masculinity. I've always loved sport, but couldn't change a car tyre for a million pounds. My hobbies are 'masculine' but normally more comfortable in the company of women (an upbringing thing). But these kind of things are largely irrelevant to me. The masculinity I aspire to is confident, but humble; strong, but not in a physical sense; loyal and supportive, there for family and friends; calm and resilient; and hard-working/dedicated. This is all true for the most important man in my life, my Grandfather, but also my Mum who would could never be described as "masculine", so perhaps they're more human qualities or I'm just not defining it properly!

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Masculinity is whatever a man chooses it to be. Yes it's a social construct (see femininity thread yesterday) and yes it's a set of list able traits if you want it to be. But like femininity it's more that both of them. It's part of your core psychological make up.

So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity.

As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it.

Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me. "

Mr Arrows, thank you so much for opening your heart and explaining what masculinity means for you. We are very sorry to read about your formative experiences and hope you have been able to heal over time somewhat

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Mr KC is masculine.

Greek mythologies masculine hero is Mars for some insight.

When I think of masculinity I am frequently drawn to the historical saying "every girl wants to find a man that treats her as well as her daddy does"

My masculinity hero is my Grandad

I like this very much indeed! By these descriptors, I'd have to say that both Mr KC and me were both masculine, just I don't look male. Mr KC has been stepdad to my son (our son) since he was 17.5 years old. He never once quibbled about the fact I came as a pair with this toddler in tow. Never quibbled that our finances were often precarious because of having an extra human to raise, that we couldn't do our own thing and be carefree teenagers/early 20s.

And, if you look at how he's responded to my acquisition of disability, he's another level of caring, supportive, hard working and just generally fucking amazing

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"It's sad though to see sometimes masculinity associated with macho aggressive behaviour. You only need to look at the look and faces of some blokes walking about with the look of someone ready to punch you. As another post mentioned masculinity means different things to different people but always better to be a 'gentleman' than a thug.

I think that's a whole different thread about what is a "gentleman" because I know that the stereotype of a "gentleman" does have some negative connotations for some people (mainly the idea that women need a "knight in shining armour" to open doors and put their coats over puddles etc).

Thank you very much for your contribution!

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By *oystick-MCRMan over a year ago

Manchester | London

"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.

Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called"

Think I’m the only person who understood this reference without googling

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I’m just moisturising and then I’ll be back to explain how my masculinity is fairing up under the pressure of society in the modern era…"

How's the beauty regime going?

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Another really interesting thread, KC. I read the one on femininity with interest, though feel more qualified to comment on this one!

And there are some very interesting replies, which is fantastic. Thank you for yours.

Your final sentence about maybe what you hold as masculine qualities are in fact human qualities - we came to much the same conclusion on the topic of "femininity". It does beg the question as to whether we need to apply such labels in the equality era of the 21st century?

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By * and R cple4Couple over a year ago

swansea

Interesting post .Me and my husband have had this discussion a few times as my husband has commented a few times that he would love to look more manly (whatever that looks like ).But I don’t think being masculine is a physical thing tho .

He always makes me feel safe and I know that no matter what he will always protect me in every way and just because physically he’s small it don’t change the way I feel .

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By *eatrice BadinageWoman over a year ago

In a Sparkly Dress

" It does beg the question as to whether we need to apply such labels in the equality era of the 21st century?"

All we need to have is diversity IMO. You can have and show traits of whatever you want to, and values and life experiences will add to your beliefs of yourself and others but essentially we are what we choose to be

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.

Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called

Think I’m the only person who understood this reference without googling"

I think you’re the only person on here that gets any of the references I make on here

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Boys, we’re doing tight shorts, t shirts tucked in and boots/sandals/ white trainers this summer.

Make sure the shorts are extra short and extra tight please.

Of course I’ll be setting an example.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Interesting post .Me and my husband have had this discussion a few times as my husband has commented a few times that he would love to look more manly (whatever that looks like ).But I don’t think being masculine is a physical thing tho .

He always makes me feel safe and I know that no matter what he will always protect me in every way and just because physically he’s small it don’t change the way I feel ."

Thank you for this

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By *ryandseeMan over a year ago

Yorkshire

Thank you very much for your contribution!"

I certainly appreciate what you are saying and I of course did not mean it like that even though it might have sounded so. I am just not keen on the super macho attitude displayed around sometimes masquerading as masculinity.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My hairy chest?

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By *ou only live onceMan over a year ago

London

"Boys, we’re doing tight shorts, t shirts tucked in and boots/sandals/ white trainers this summer.

Make sure the shorts are extra short and extra tight please.

Of course I’ll be setting an example.

Got it. But of course real men don't wear t-shirts; they just strut around topless.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Thank you very much for your contribution!

Totally agree on the super macho-ness. I see it in the gym quite often and frankly, it's quite comical to watch. It certainly doesn't make me want to drop my knickers and jump on them

Perhaps "toxic masculinity" should be another separate thread, because perhaps the super macho comes under the umbrella of "toxic"?

Thank you again for your thoughts

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"My hairy chest?

Can a man without chest/body hair be masculine?

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By *ryandseeMan over a year ago

Yorkshire

Thank you very much for your contribution!

Totally agree on the super macho-ness. I see it in the gym quite often and frankly, it's quite comical to watch. It certainly doesn't make me want to drop my knickers and jump on them

Perhaps "toxic masculinity" should be another separate thread, because perhaps the super macho comes under the umbrella of "toxic"?

Thank you again for your thoughts

and you made me laugh too.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Boys, we’re doing tight shorts, t shirts tucked in and boots/sandals/ white trainers this summer.

Make sure the shorts are extra short and extra tight please.

Of course I’ll be setting an example.

Got it. But of course real men don't wear t-shirts; they just strut around topless."

Time to redefine what a real man is

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. "

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity.

As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it.

Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me.

I had traumatic amnesia so for 20 years I had no memories of what happened. Well I had no surface memories. They were always there I just suppressed them. The sad side effects are that all memories were suppressed and emotions too. You can't allow yourself to feel things. I kept my rage buried deep. And when I did snap I would black out. (Usually protecting friends or family)

I had few memories of my childhood but I knew a man didn't take things, he asked, a man didn't abandon his responsibilities, he prioritised them, a man didn't intimidate others, he cared and protected.

Therapy, anger management, my wife and my friends all helped me while I was unpacking the dramatic shit that was my early life. Then my dad died so I put down the anger I was carrying for him, and I brought the church to court to get a degree of justice from them. I hired a very expensive solicitor and made them pay my costs. It was therapeutic.

Now I'm the best version of myself. I think I am at least

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By *illingToHelpMan over a year ago

Oldham or South Shore

Man up, sit down

Chin up, pipe down

Socks up, don't cry

Drink up, just lie

Grow some balls, he said

Grow some balls

Man up, sit down

Chin up, pipe down

Socks up, don't cry

Drink up, don't whine

Grow some balls, he said

Grow some balls

The mask of masculinity

Is a mask, a mask that's wearing me

The mask, the mask, the mask

I'm a real boy, boy, and I cry

I love myself and I want to try

This is why you never see your father cry

This is why you never see your father

Man up, sit down

Chin up, pipe down

Socks up, don't cry

Drink up, just lie

Grow some balls, he said

Grow some balls

Man up, sit down

Chin up, pipe down

Socks up, don't cry

Drink up, don't whine

Grow some balls, he said

Grow some balls

The mask of masculinity

Is a mask, a mask that's wearing me

The mask, the mask, the mask

I'm a real boy, boy and I cry

I love myself and I want to try

This is why you never see your father cry

This is why you never see your father

I kissed a boy and I liked it

Man up, sit down

Chin up, pipe down

Socks up, don't cry

Drink up, don't whine

This is why, this is why, this is why

IDLES

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

"My hairy chest?

Can a man without chest/body hair be masculine?"

Of course.

(Unless you *need* to define your own Masculinity as requiring hair on your body, then obviously no)

I know lots of hairy men who are weak and insecure. I also know lots of hairless men who are weak and insecure.

To me, in my humble opinion Masculinity is more to do with how you do things and treat people than how much hair you have on your chin or chest.

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

Talking about Masculinity is not something that some men can do comfortably.

They see the stereotype and they know they fall short of whatever standard that is for themselves

Or they meet this imaginary standard and realise that they have become the serotype.

Masculine men don't need to justify their Masculinity

(See what I did there ... that last one is one of the things I have as a pillar of Masculinity and I do it well so I emphasise it

)

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By *illingToHelpMan over a year ago

Oldham or South Shore

I seem to have the “masculinity” conversation with so many male students in school. It’s definitely still a societal issue where ideals of toxic masculinity are passed down through the generations. I think it’s much more pronounced in working class communities, and even more so in BAME working class communities. Young men think that showing any sign of weakness is an affront to their masculinity, and in some ways it is, in that, showing signs of weakness means that they’re going to get exploited on “the streets”, so they have to constantly wear their masks of masculinity for survival. They wear it so much that it becomes normalised, and they become a caricature of themselves.

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By *illingToHelpMan over a year ago

Oldham or South Shore

Toxic masculinity is just as dangerous to men as beauty standards are to women, yet, ironically, toxic masculinity states that talking about it and admitting that it negatively affects us emasculates us. So it never gets addressed.

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? "

He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I seem to have the “masculinity” conversation with so many male students in school. It’s definitely still a societal issue where ideals of toxic masculinity are passed down through the generations. I think it’s much more pronounced in working class communities, and even more so in BAME working class communities. Young men think that showing any sign of weakness is an affront to their masculinity, and in some ways it is, in that, showing signs of weakness means that they’re going to get exploited on “the streets”, so they have to constantly wear their masks of masculinity for survival. They wear it so much that it becomes normalised, and they become a caricature of themselves."

It's interesting that many of our male students (post 16, international) actually seem to reassess their own view of themselves. They spend an academic year in a mixed gender, mixed nationality/language/culture college and they see influences from everywhere. Aside a small number who remain entrenched only with people from their own background, most develop a new-found inquisitiveness for things they would previously have dismissed.

For example, one of the classes I teach has students from about 8 or 9 different countries. One student is transgender. I anticipated some challenges in getting the group integrated, especially from the Middle Eastern male students. I've been pleasantly surprised to see that everyone has just been super accepting and they all get on famously. Yes, students ask each other questions but from the perspective of wanting to learn and to understand. Not one male student has tried to impose their version of masculinity on the student whose passport says "male" but who is transitioning and who presents as female. I think they have a lot of admiration for her bravery, actually.

I fucking love my job!

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore?

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Talking about Masculinity is not something that some men can do comfortably.

They see the stereotype and they know they fall short of whatever standard that is for themselves

Or they meet this imaginary standard and realise that they have become the serotype.

Masculine men don't need to justify their Masculinity

(See what I did there ... that last one is one of the things I have as a pillar of Masculinity and I do it well so I emphasise it

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

"Toxic masculinity is just as dangerous to men as beauty standards are to women, yet, ironically, toxic masculinity states that talking about it and admitting that it negatively affects us emasculates us. So it never gets addressed."

One way I addressed my emasculinity was to identify it and do things to fill the void.

My wife is great at DIY. So I always left it to her. But I realised this was a source of suppressed anger for me. (Not at her, at me) so I started doing shit around the house with her.

It helped

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By *illingToHelpMan over a year ago

Oldham or South Shore

I fucking love my job!"

That’s a great story!!! I mean, that just reinforces why we get into teaching - watching young minds develop into well adjusted adults is a reward that can’t be easily explained. Well done for creating an accepting and positive environment for all.

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore? "

There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore?

There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard

My understanding (with a broad brush) is that the "crisis of masculinity" is related to the rise of feminism and equality of rights and opportunities for women in society. I have to say that if a man feels less of a man because the heating engineer who comes to install his boiler is female, or because his boss on a construction site is female, then that's his own warped view of masculinity.

Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted.

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore?

There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard

Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted. "

That’s actually totally wrong. No one with with a shred of common sense doesn’t want equality of opportunity in the workplace, what you should want is the most competent person available in the role regardless of gender or race. what men and women generally choose to do for work differs but that is their preference. I work in construction which is a male dominant industry. My wife is a midwife which is predominantly female.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore?

There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard

Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted.

We totally agree that the best and most competent person for a job should be doing it. But that isn't the view of everyone. There's definitely a school of thought that the fact hitherto all-male "spaces" have been opened to women, such as previously male dominated workplaces, is to blame for the "crisis of masculinity", among other things.

Stealing a quote:

British sociologist John MacInnes wrote that "masculinity has always been in one crisis or another", suggesting that the crises arise from the "fundamental incompatibility between the core principle of modernity that all human beings are essentially equal (regardless of their sex) and the core tenet of patriarchy that men are naturally superior to women and thus destined to rule over them".

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore?

There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard

Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted.

But you must want equality of opportunity in a workplace. For the exact reason you stated. You want the best person for the job, or the most competent. Not the most competent of one sex.

What if the best mid wife is a dude. He's exceptionally good at all the things he needs to be? Shouldn't he have a chance ? Should be stopped because he lacks ovaries.

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it?

What is making men not men anymore?

There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard

Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted.

But you must want equality of opportunity in a workplace. For the exact reason you stated. You want the best person for the job, or the most competent. Not the most competent of one sex.

What if the best mid wife is a dude. He's exceptionally good at all the things he needs to be? Shouldn't he have a chance ? Should be stopped because he lacks ovaries. "

I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

" I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply "

Is working in construction all about strength? Are there any underlying reasons why women might be put off training in construction relate trades? Or in fact men training in traditionally female dominated professions? Nearly every gynaecologist I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) have been male. But I only encountered one male midwife during my two pregnancies. The male midwife was by far and away the most personable and reassuring, by the way. I'd happily have had him deliver my daughter.

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

"I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply "

I think we are talking about different things here. No one would suggest picking a bad chippie to work for a company just because they are a woman. That's stupid. But if the person who can do the job best is a woman then it's stupid to pick a man just because he's a man.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Masculinities will differ between ‘BAME’ communities. They even differ between Black West Indian communities and Black African communities in Britain. And in terms of the ‘roads’ I agree with the pressures. But the ironic thing is that (speaking as a Black man) Black boys and men are not allowed or afforded space to be anything anyway. You’re constantly a threat. You’re not allowed to be angry or you’re aggressive. You’re not allowed to wear comfy clothes because then you’re a criminal. And I think there’s a difference between performing masculinity to survive and performing masculinity how you wish to. I have performed masculinity in some ways to survive/ get by because the space in society hasn’t allowed me to be different. But then been completely different when allowed the space. - how I am now.

Also let’s factor in the way that Black men are hupersexualised historically. How cultures are hyper sexualised too. Etc. I just feel like it’s a minefield for young Black boys and it makes me want to cry for them. But it is what it is.

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

There is a lot of skill involved but also a lot of strength required. Some materials can be extremely heavy and take considerable strength to lift. As I said I believe that the most competent person willing to do the job should get the job. I’m super happy that you had a good experience with a male midwife but men don’t have as much interest in doing the job.

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By *illingToHelpMan over a year ago

Oldham or South Shore

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify?

(Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify?

(Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)"

Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)--

Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports "

--That would make no difference even when they do! I didn't meant to suggest they did compete in sports, that wasn't part of my point at all. My point is, would you call a woman 'masculine' just for being competitive (which they obviously are) or indeed actually sporty (which they also are!).--

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By *instonandLadyAstorCouple over a year ago

Not where we seem to be...

I watch Strictly and I'm learning to dance. I'm emotional and cry. Society suggests these are not masculine traits.

I have a shaved head and tattoos and teach people how to kill other people. I'll fight for what is right & what I believe in and will defend those I love with my last breath. Society suggests these are masculine traits.

I'm just a bloke. Simple as that.

Winston

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify?

(Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)

Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports "

But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Are all construction jobs dependent on heavy lifting? Or just some of them? Is there equipment that could be employed to remove the need for lifting and thus not only allow those who are not as physically strong to work but also protect the backs of those who would otherwise be putting their intervertebral discs under unnecessary strain?

When I was able bodied, I worked in a brewery. We did all the heavy lifting with hoists and mechanical lifting equipment.

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By *aughty_builder87Man over a year ago

Keston

When I was able bodied, I worked in a brewery. We did all the heavy lifting with hoists and mechanical lifting equipment. "

I’m some aspects like painting the lifting isn’t as important(still don’t get applications for them). Carpenters definitely need a base level strength.

I’m not saying women can’t do it I’m saying why they could have challenges.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

When I was able bodied, I worked in a brewery. We did all the heavy lifting with hoists and mechanical lifting equipment.

I’m some aspects like painting the lifting isn’t as important(still don’t get applications for them). Carpenters definitely need a base level strength.

I’m not saying women can’t do it I’m saying why they could have challenges."

And I'm just wondering whether things could be adapted a bit? Is it necessary/healthy to lift very heavy things by hand? My job was adapted around my acquired disability - could construction not similarly adapt around people who cannot lift very heavy weights? Just musing...

Aside the physical aspects, could you think of reasons why women continue to be under represented in areas like motor mechanics, plumbing, electrical work? When I worked in an FE college engineering department, we had quite a few female apprentice mechanics. I wonder if they've stuck with it? I tell you what, they used to get some terrible stick from the male apprentices. I used to get terrible stick from the male apprentices also

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By *inkywife1981Couple over a year ago

A town near you

Mr here. I don't really watch sports that much though I enjoy watching big boxing and snooker events, I work in construction and also a part time farmer. Am I masculine?

The wife loves watching rugby and gaa, loves gadgets and prefers to wear leggings and hoodies 99% of the time. Is she feminine?

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify?

(Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)

Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports

But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports."

--You have completely missed my point--

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

"I watch Strictly and I'm learning to dance. I'm emotional and cry. Society suggests these are not masculine traits.

I'm just a bloke. Simple as that.

Winston"

Exactly Winston.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify?

(Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)

Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports

But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports.

--You have completely missed my point--"

I was replying to the person who said men and women don't play sports together, I wanted to see what he said about mixed gender sports...

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"Mr here. I don't really watch sports that much though I enjoy watching big boxing and snooker events, I work in construction and also a part time farmer. Am I masculine?

The wife loves watching rugby and gaa, loves gadgets and prefers to wear leggings and hoodies 99% of the time. Is she feminine?"

We had the femininity discussion yesterday and we didn't really decide very much! We did decide that the social construct of "feminine" was mainly based in 19th century white, middle/upper class ideals of femininity and we also decided that femininity was subjective and more about how the person feels than what they look like or how they behave.

So, we bat the question back - does Mr feel masculine? Does Mrs feel feminine?

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine?

Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify?

(Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)

Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports

But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports.

--You have completely missed my point--

I was replying to the person who said men and women don't play sports together, I wanted to see what he said about mixed gender sports..."

--oh sorry, I find these hard to follow. Darts is mixed too now, and to really good effect when I saw it last. But as I said to the guy in another post, that wasn't part of my point. --

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By *arkcrystalMan over a year ago

Bristol

I'm a bit of this and a bit of that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We had similar conversation the other day.

Those that don't know me I surpose I'm quiet masculine. But cherry said I'm also in touch with my feminine side and not afraid to show emotions. Fiercely protective of those important to me, friends and family...I'm just me.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity.

As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it.

Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me.

Now I'm the best version of myself. I think I am at least"

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"We had similar conversation the other day.

Would you guys say that showing emotions is a feminine trait? Does that apply to all emotions?

Thank you for your contribution!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I had to sit on my response and really ponder. Even looked up definitions and Wikipedia.

As a consequence I feel rather like a dinosaur.

I'd agree with opinions expressed above regarding social constructs based upon cultural design.

I really do think masculinity is being redefined like never before, but worry about how many men feel slightly out of place and not quite prepared for it.

Regardless of some perspectives, the younger generations are introducing greater awareness of diversity and tolerance and kindness. Will that change masculinity? We continue to progress I think...were all work in progress and the world, despite appearing mad is far better than it used to be? So who cares what it's meant to look like? Just do you if you're trying your best.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

" I had to sit on my response and really ponder. Even looked up definitions and Wikipedia.

As a consequence I feel rather like a dinosaur.

I'd agree with opinions expressed above regarding social constructs based upon cultural design.

I really do think masculinity is being redefined like never before, but worry about how many men feel slightly out of place and not quite prepared for it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to ponder, we really appreciate your perspective. What you have said would seem to be very valid and insightful. We definitely subscribe to those last two sentences as well

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By *SYDirtySecretMan over a year ago

St Helier

It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things."

Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I’m a man.

I do masculine shit.

I care not what other people think.

Everything has changed so much over the years that it’s all taken on different meanings.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I’m a man.

I do masculine shit.

I care not what other people think.

Everything has changed so much over the years that it’s all taken on different meanings.

Thanks for your contribution

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By *SYDirtySecretMan over a year ago

St Helier

"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things.

Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? "

Probably less different than you'd think really.

Men still generally do the dangerous jobs.

Masculinity would dictate that, if my house were getting burgled I would be the one to get in harms way first. If we were being mugged I would still be expected by society and myself, to take the lead in what happens and be the human shield.

I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that.

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By *ndecentexposureMan over a year ago

north london

"What is it? Does it exist? Should the concept exist? This musing is inspired by the "Femininity" thread we posted yesterday and which generated some very interesting and insightful conversation. We thought, "why not muse on masculinity too?"

Discuss!"
The question shouldn't be does it exist but should it exist . Who does it exist for? How many men here have masculine as a description of themselves on their profile ?

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things.

Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one?

Probably less different than you'd think really.

Men still generally do the dangerous jobs.

I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that."

The 2021 Dangerous Occupations Report says that the top 3 areas of work with the greatest risk of fatalities are:

1) Building Construction (not including scaffolding, which is listed separately and has a very, very low number of the fatalities, less than education for example)

2) Farming

3) Healthcare and nursing

Healthcare and nursing had a fairly similar proportion of the fatalities to farming (13.27% for healthcare vs 15.60% for farming).

Interesting data....

As for putting oneself in harm's way, I understand why men with families might feel that they should take on the burden of defending their families. But that said, plenty of women have to do it. Single parent families, situations where women are alone in their hour of need etc. Just look at many women in Ukraine, who are actively taking up arms and defending their country.

Until I acquired my disability, I'd have been right next to Mr KC if we had burglars or something. We'd be far stronger as a pair. Nowadays, I have to accept that my fighting days are over though.

As for "women and children first", having read accounts of some serious events in recent years, I'm not convinced that mindset still exists in the way it did, for example, when the Titanic went down. Even then, many men pushed into the lifeboats, ahead of women and children (and that's without considering the class divide).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/women-and-children-first-it-s-every-man-for-himself-on-a-sinking-ship-7987975.html

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things.

Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one?

Probably less different than you'd think really.

Men still generally do the dangerous jobs.

I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that."

We can't comment on your profile (rules and whatnot), but lots of men include descriptions of themselves that might be considered stereotypically masculine (like strong arms, broad shoulders, big thighs etc). Similarly, some men who lack those physical features make self deprecating comments about their slim build, shorter stature and many, MANY men lie about their height and penis size.

We wonder why these physical descriptors are considered necessary? Pictures can presumably convey such info and one person's big shoulders might be another person's mediocre shoulders? (I know that I have massive, broad shoulders *for a woman*

)

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By *SYDirtySecretMan over a year ago

St Helier

"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine property of the personality spectrum.

Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one?

Probably less different than you'd think really.

Men still generally do the dangerous jobs.

I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that.

Please don't take my words as capturing everyone and everything. A women can be and is as deadly as a man in every way. I'm not at all saying women can't do that but when two partners are together and that would apply probably equally to MM, MF, FF couples too, there's probably one with more tendency to be combative in those situations and generally speaking, that's a masculine property of the personality spectrum

Same reason we have more males in prison for violence, more males in high speed wrecks or wreckers driving, males in bar fights. More male bin collectors, sewage workers, road sweepers. Its not always a good tendency but I general, I'd say a big portion of masculinity is ones self imposed duty to be the front line during danger or to put one's self in difficult or dangerous positions more willingly.

and I am in no way saying these things are good or bad. Or apply to everyone. I'm talking in general and about the subject. I don't think profile pics really fit the conversation.

Also, I literally have a dick appointment early next week so... no judgement here

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all.

So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours.

Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine property of the personality spectrum.

Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one?

Probably less different than you'd think really.

Men still generally do the dangerous jobs.

I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that.

)

and I am in no way saying these things are good or bad. Or apply to everyone. I'm talking in general and about the subject. I don't think profile pics really fit the conversation.

Also, I literally have a dick appointment early next week so... no judgement here"

Yikes, we replied to the wrong person with that last one! Sorry

We replied to you with some data on dangerous jobs and stuff. Absolutely no issues with profiles (but good luck with your dick appointment

)

We'll reply to the right guy now!

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Discuss! The question shouldn't be does it exist but should it exist . Who does it exist for? How many men here have masculine as a description of themselves on their profile ? "

ORIGINALLY REPLIED TO THE WRONG RESPONSE, SORRY!

)

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By *inister_SpinsterWoman over a year ago

North West

This is a fascinating discussion.

I'd like to recommend this TED radio hour programme on the biology of sex.

https://player.fm/1BPShAx

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By *heArrowsCouple over a year ago

Two days of really good topics. Well Done Mrs KC. We need to get you a good spanking or other suitable reward for the hard work you have put in

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This is a fascinating discussion.

I'd like to recommend this TED radio hour programme on the biology of sex.

https://player.fm/1BPShAx"

On my list

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"This is a fascinating discussion.

I'd like to recommend this TED radio hour programme on the biology of sex.

https://player.fm/1BPShAx"

Thanks, will take a look in the cold hard light of day

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

People are who they are, there is no point trying to be someone they are not. He has quality’s that other males don’t, masculine is over rated xxx

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS over a year ago

Stockport

I feel that I am a person who has some experience of life on both sides of the gender divide, and who takes more than a casual interest in gendered behaviour. Making a super wide generalisation, I see a lot of toxicity in much of "traditional" masculine traits. Anger, violence, narcissism, self-centredness, physical strength and a willingness to use it, prizing power over service, might above right... A lot of this behaviour being linked to high testosterone levels, some of it learned behaviour from being brought up to be "masculine".

From empirical observation, I have seen the emotional character of some trans women change markedly when they have started on gender hormone therapy, becoming more empathic and thoughtful of the needs of others.

I'm sure that gender differences are not as simple as masculine = testosterone = bad, feminine = oestrogen = good. It is perhaps true though that the very worst examples of humanity do tend to be men who regard themselves are being exemplars of masculinity (viz. Putin, Stalin, most any other dictator).

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"People are who they are, there is no point trying to be someone they are not. He has quality’s that other males don’t, masculine is over rated xxx"

Thank you. Actually neither of us are particularly bothered that we're not considered masculine/feminine (see the previous "Feminine" thread). We're mainly using ourselves as stimulus material to be honest. We agree that it's best to focus on the person and not in trying to apply labels.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I feel that I am a person who has some experience of life on both sides of the gender divide, and who takes more than a casual interest in gendered behaviour. Making a super wide generalisation, I see a lot of toxicity in much of "traditional" masculine traits. Anger, violence, narcissism, self-centredness, physical strength and a willingness to use it, prizing power over service, might above right... A lot of this behaviour being linked to high testosterone levels, some of it learned behaviour from being brought up to be "masculine".

Thank you, Polly. Very interesting insight (as ever) from someone with a fairly unique perspective. It is very interesting as to how hormones might play a role, but also, to what extent is it correlation vs causation? Could it be possible that a man with higher T is more stereotypically masculine because he's displaying learned behaviour, rather than his T being the driver of his behaviour?

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By *heirry84Man over a year ago

West Midlands

Discuss!"

To me masculinity is about performing the roles that males are more suited to and asserting my dominance over other men in one way or another.... that sounds bad when i read it back but i'll explain. I am a bald, 6'6" male who has lots of testosterone, hence the baldness. I have always took part in sports, especially boxing and basketball, and love nothing more than winning or asserting my dominance over others whilst participating. I can't explain why this is really, I believe it's as much to do with not letting myself look weak as it is winning. But as I get older I have come to realise that sports are one of the only times I'm present and it's almost like meditation for me. The only times I have ever felt depressed is when I'm not exercising.

I don't like others to treat me like I'm weak or vulnerable either. I will challenge and fight others to stop this happening. I believe this stems from me being mixed race. I learnt at school that as one of the only black kids, I could not tolerate any form of racism because if I let one person do it, everyone could and maybe would. I even fought friends because of silly racist comments that I knew they didn't really mean, they were just observations. Like how you call some a fat so and so if they're overweight. But again, I felt I could not show weakness.

I see it as my role to be the protector of my family and would do anything to uphold that. I believe this is still needed if I'm honest. I am stronger and have more muscle mass than the females or children I am protecting so would feel responsible if I was unable to protect them. I am not a violent person and would much rather talk things out. But I do think at times there is no reasoning with others so will do what I have to stop them doing things I disagree with.

And to finish: I do believe men and women have different roles because of how different our bodies and hormones are. It's not set in stone but in every relationship I've ever been in they are more caring and sensitive than me. Where as i have always been expected to do all the lifting and building. This is probably more to do with us as people but I can't imagine it being any other way.

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

If you want to avoid blunder, avoid gender - maybe 'alpha' is the better word for much of this? Otherwise, what does masculine actually mean? Something that is meant to be most typically male, which will always be there to some degree but can always change, vary and cross gender.

It's the same with the word feminine, yet traditionally men have had more to lose by being seen as less-male/more-female. Hence the word 'emasculating'. Obviously this has changed as society progresses.

The mention of football jarred in the OP's post as I've known so many women into it, and I am too - though it has never been from any form of 'masculine' point of view.

Football *is* competitive though. I thought maybe football's competitive nature was one of the reasons it was mentioned, so I've made the point that women are competitive too (and sporty, obviously) - and in no way less than men - it is just highly effected by opportunity. Many men are neither sporty nor competitive! But they can still be seen as 'manly' ie nothing less than real men!

Nor are men always physical. Ditto above: real men basically stand up and show courage when they need to, as do women when they need to. But when actually is that? Where I am from, Cardiff has often been used to show how physical some women can be when convention breaks down (ie they get d*unk). Non-physical men can get hit by them (and I have been).

Also being a 'collector' and a 'geek' (eg collecting miniatures) used to be entirely a male trait. The why is it also not masculine? Women collect things for sure, but the more abstract element was seen as almost entirely a male domain. So why is collecting miniatures less masculine somehow? Because it is somehow less 'macho' perhaps? Macho being the male expression of alpha?

The word 'geek' wasn't really around when I was a kid, but girls thought they had to laugh at boys into 'stupid' things, and boys laughed at girls because they were kind-of stupid in their eyes: they were twee little girls. Thank god that is getting so much better (all the gender biases in younger children's toys and play aside - adults alas still find all that just too nostalgic and cute).

As the OP infers, dictionary definitions of masculine always mention convention and tradition. If you want to go further, remove the gender I say. Some people are more alpha than others.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

" To me masculinity is about performing the roles that males are more suited to and asserting my dominance over other men in one way or another.... that sounds bad when i read it back but i'll explain. I am a bald, 6'6" male who has lots of testosterone, hence the baldness. I have always took part in sports, especially boxing and basketball, and love nothing more than winning or asserting my dominance over others whilst participating. I can't explain why this is really, I believe it's as much to do with not letting myself look weak as it is winning. But as I get older I have come to realise that sports are one of the only times I'm present and it's almost like meditation for me. The only times I have ever felt depressed is when I'm not exercising.

Okay - male pattern baldness is not caused by high levels of testosterone. It's caused by a genetic predisposition to be more sensitive to the effects of dihydrotestosterone. Men with MPB have physiologically normal levels of T, but over produce an enzyme involved in converting T to dihydrotestosterone, which can cause hair follicles to shrink (among other things).

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20121210-are-bald-men-more-virile#:~:text=Hamilton%27s%20finding%20suggested%20that%20high,levels%20can%20still%20go%20bald.

As for the rest, I, Mrs KC (the lady of the couple), identify pretty strongly with being super competitive. I am well known for being THE most competitive person known to my family and friends. I enjoy contact sports (always have) and take a lot of pleasure in beating men at my chosen sport of wheelchair basketball.

How is this relevant? We're back to correlation and causation. Is it masculinity and suchlike that leads you to be you, or is it just......you?

Have women been more caring etc and you more expected to lift and shift due to inbuilt biological difference or due to societal norms that you have all seen when growing up? I've described myself above as über competitive, I'm also physically strong, I lift weights etc. But I'm also a very caring and motherly person and always have been.

I do wonder how much is biology and how much is copying societal norms/what we see around us when we're growing up.

Thank you for your contribution!

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 18/04/22 01:34:21]

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

Persiantug - items in the OP are all aspects of either mine or Mr KC's character/personality that have, over the years, been used to describe us variously as not masculine or feminine. I suspect most of them are stereotypes (e.g. men liking football).

Actually, it's Mrs KC who enjoys football and used to play. Mrs KC clearly also likes a geeky guy, because she married one (

) but at school, Mr KC was frequently bullied for his hobby of collecting and painting miniatures and it's only in recent years where such hobbies seem (to us, anyway) to have become more mainstream.

Basically, we're prodding the bear by using ourselves as examples, with a few stereotypes lumped in as stimulus.

In reality, neither of us could particularly care how or if we are categorised and neither of us feel especially "masculine" or "feminine" nor, to be honest, have any special or fluffy feelings about our gender. We are two people who, despite being wildly different, seem pretty well matched.

We just liked the topic, which was stimulated by some interesting comments on other threads in recent days.

We agree that taking gender out of the equation is often sensible

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I’m actually large built guy it counts for nothing reallly

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By *LiamMan over a year ago

Midlands

I think i'm a masculine guy and I also think that everyone spends way too much time on the internet getting offended about what label they fall under

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I’m actually large built guy it counts for nothing reallly

Do you mind us asking in what way it counts for nothing? Obviously if you don't feel comfortable expanding, then please don't feel pressured to do so.

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By *inky_couple2020 OP Couple over a year ago

North West

"I think i'm a masculine guy and I also think that everyone spends way too much time on the internet getting offended about what label they fall under"

Would you care to expand on what specifically about you/your character is particularly masculine? We hope no-one is offended by the thread and conversation, we merely intended to have a thoughtful discussion. We did a similar thread on "femininity" also.

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

"I think i'm a masculine guy and I also think that everyone spends way too much time on the internet getting offended about what label they fall under"

-I know what you mean but I wouldn't say everyone-

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By *ersiantugMan over a year ago

Cardiff

"I’m actually large built guy it counts for nothing reallly

-On here though it must mean something surely?

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By *heirry84Man over a year ago

West Midlands

Well I didn't know that about baldness. Every day is a school day.

I understand that women are also competitive and find it attractive. However, I guess I would only be interested in beating men. Even though there's literally thousands of women better than me at basketball, I have never met one so it hasn't been something I have even considered. Also, whilst boxing I had to spar with females and I would always pull punches. This was because even the girls with heavier hands couldn't back me up so if I wanted, I could have walked them down. This isn't gender specific though, whilst sparing I would never want to hurt someone who I didn't feel could hurt me.

Hmm it's interesting that we try to differetiate correlation and causation in this instance. Masculinity isn't what drives me to act the way I do but I can recognise that I have a lot of the traits. I would always offer to help a woman because I was raised to be a gentleman. I open doors for them and let them walk through first, I walk on the side of the road the car is and will always lift things for a woman. At the same time, I recognise that I am stronger than most women, so to me, it seems logical for me to do it as i'm better equipped.

But yeah you could be asking questions about societal norms and biology forever and never find an answer because the two aren't easily seperated. Societal norms come about because of biology. Think about the many different countries and cultures there are yet the roles of each gender are usually the same. I don't think that's a coincidence

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai / Nottingham

I don’t think I’m generally masculine in terms of things like that most guys like - beer , football , cars , power tools but am assertive and direct and taking risks or getting what I want is quite normal. Like a lot of guys I can also connect with feminine qualities too without feeling insecure

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Masculinity- Deep voice, into man things-sports, banter, diy, not showing emotions, pretending you know about every trade going.

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By *ryandseeMan over a year ago

Yorkshire

This kind of thread is an excellent way to collect enough material for a thesis or an essay. I wish I had thought of it when I was doing mine. I would never have had to do any work for it myself and probably still get an A.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We had similar conversation the other day.

Would you guys say that showing emotions is a feminine trait? Does that apply to all emotions?

Thank you for your contribution!"

I don't think showing emotions is a female trait. In my view to show emotions is a emotional resistance and about emotional intelligence. As for the feminine side, I'm very touchy feely, I'm very good at reading cherry and quite empathic. But on the other side I suppose I enjoy doing what would be considered traditional male things, fixing and making things, which I guess I get from my dad and grandad.

Really liking this post. Lots to think about!

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By *instonandLadyAstorCouple over a year ago

Not where we seem to be...

Early in our relationship we were sat on the settee, swapping YouTube links. I sent Winston a clip of people making lovely gestures to complete strangers.

Lots of awww and wow that's amazing.

I noticed Winston was quiet, looked over and he was crying. Openly. Not trying to cover his emotion in any way. Touched by the beautiful humanity in the clips.

His openness to show that raw emotion, his comfort in expressing, to not worry about showing a "weakness"... the most masculine thing I've ever seen.

Lady Astor

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