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Of boys and men
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By *asual777 OP Man
over a year ago
i travel all over |
I have been reading about a new book called of boys and men.
It details how fewer men than women have university degrees (a reversal of previous stats), and actual men’s wages have declined since the 1970s. Many manufacturing jobs have been automated. Boys are less likely to escape poverty than girls . Men are more likely to commit suicide and use substances .
The author says men need to adapt to the new reality where women are more independent and rely on men less than they used to .
The authors advocates for more male teachers , more vocational courses , and 6 months paternity leave as an option .
Your thoughts about whether Masculinity is in crisis are much appreciated !
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Very often used as a divisive topic when discussing gender roles etc. Not so much masculinity in crisis as equality being applied. That data indicates women perform better than men when the scales are balanced, fellas thrived where there is a specific advantage in place.
I think lads will naturally start to improve their efforts to compete in jobs, university, relationships etc. They have to or they'll be left wanking in the shower on a Friday night. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Unfortunately akot if guys my age were encouraged to go into trades from school, as it the late 90s start of the celtic tiger boom. I was very good st the ould business studies and was wanting to do accountancy for the leaving cert , but it clashed with construction studies and I was told to keep it on as i was also do mechanical drawing so the school system was pushing boys towards construction. Now it all about free choice but prehaps some families couldn't afford to send childs to college that a real issue to. Plus it wa th3 norm to say if a man isn't out earning he was less of a man. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I must check that book out. It's a topic I'm greatly interested in and it's something I work at challenging norms around.
I don't think that masculinity is in "crisis". I do believe that many societal norms and conventions surrounding traditional male roles and expectations placed upon men do need to be examined and reconsidered. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Your thoughts about whether Masculinity is in crisis are much appreciated !
'Masculinity' is just a social construct. Its flexible.
The crisis is for humanity in general in my opinion Casual.
We are living in societies actually unfit for human habitation - both socially, and environmentally. The number of people on anti-depressants or struggling unmedicated with stress burnout anxiety and depression would tell us that.
In general we are so far from how we were naturally designed to be and we dont even realise it...
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And yet men still have many advantages, both physical and due to power structures they created.
Men earn more for the same job
Men are more likely to be promoted
Men are larger and taller
Men are more physically strong
Sportsmen don't even compete against women as it would be unfair
Promiscuous men are studs, Promiscuous women are sluts
I could go on and on
We still life in a patriarchy, and boo-hoo men have had to undergo a certain amount of change tipping things to be slightly more even, but there is a long way to go.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't view masculinity as being in crisis because I dont view it in traditional terms.
Also I tend to not pay too much attention to the loud minority of extremists on the left or right.
I still find most people have a balanced view on gender equality.
I certainly don't feel oppressed or attacked as alot of the commentators in this area suggest I should. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't view masculinity as being in crisis because I dont view it in traditional terms.
Also I tend to not pay too much attention to the loud minority of extremists on the left or right.
I still find most people have a balanced view on gender equality.
I certainly don't feel oppressed or attacked as alot of the commentators in this area suggest I should."
Funny, that last sentence is how I've always felt about being a woman |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't view masculinity as being in crisis because I dont view it in traditional terms.
Also I tend to not pay too much attention to the loud minority of extremists on the left or right.
I still find most people have a balanced view on gender equality.
I certainly don't feel oppressed or attacked as alot of the commentators in this area suggest I should.
Funny, that last sentence is how I've always felt about being a woman"
This is a discussion about men's issues please respect our space. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't view masculinity as being in crisis because I dont view it in traditional terms.
Also I tend to not pay too much attention to the loud minority of extremists on the left or right.
I still find most people have a balanced view on gender equality.
I certainly don't feel oppressed or attacked as alot of the commentators in this area suggest I should.
Funny, that last sentence is how I've always felt about being a woman
This is a discussion about men's issues please respect our space. "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have been reading about a new book called of boys and men.
It details how fewer men than women have university degrees (a reversal of previous stats), and actual men’s wages have declined since the 1970s. Many manufacturing jobs have been automated. Boys are less likely to escape poverty than girls . Men are more likely to commit suicide and use substances .
The author says men need to adapt to the new reality where women are more independent and rely on men less than they used to .
The authors advocates for more male teachers , more vocational courses , and 6 months paternity leave as an option .
Your thoughts about whether Masculinity is in crisis are much appreciated !
"
So-called "soft" skills have been much more in demand in the workplace since a lot of manufacturing jobs got automated or moved abroad during the 80's/90's/00's. Modern office jobs are definitely more suitable for women and so women are a lot more competitive in the workforce these days. "Masculinity" has certainly had to adapt to these changes but I wouldn't say that men are in crisis - but old ideas about men's roles have been dying out. Still, men are attracted to IT/Finance/Accounting and will always be attracted to certain trades. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too."
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities. |
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By *og-ManMan
over a year ago
somewhere |
"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities."
10,000 in 3Arena last week |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities.
10,000 in 3Arena last week "
Jordan "the broken clock" Peterson  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have been reading about a new book called of boys and men.
It details how fewer men than women have university degrees (a reversal of previous stats), and actual men’s wages have declined since the 1970s. Many manufacturing jobs have been automated. Boys are less likely to escape poverty than girls . Men are more likely to commit suicide and use substances .
The author says men need to adapt to the new reality where women are more independent and rely on men less than they used to .
The authors advocates for more male teachers , more vocational courses , and 6 months paternity leave as an option .
Your thoughts about whether Masculinity is in crisis are much appreciated !
"
A few other good reads...
Cry Like a Man
Reinventing Masculinity
Raising Boys
The Hero With a Thousand Faces
Modern Man in Search of a Soul
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities.
10,000 in 3Arena last week
Jordan "the broken clock" Peterson "
Does he have any solutions? Offer any positive vision or outcomes? What did those 10,000 men leave with? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities."
He's definitely a conservative - but I don't see anything necessarily wrong with that or worthy of negative judgement...in my book, anyone that offers good practical advice to people who feel they need it is doing them and humanity a service. What could be wrong with some men taking a good look in the mirror and cleaning up their act and taking life on instead of hiding from it? That's my main take-away from Peterson. I don't care if he is making money off it as long as he is helping some men get better. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities.
10,000 in 3Arena last week
Jordan "the broken clock" Peterson
Does he have any solutions? Offer any positive vision or outcomes? What did those 10,000 men leave with?"
Apparently, clean your room and sort yourself out bucko are the main take aways.
Vic Berger does some great parody videos of him. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Apparently, clean your room and sort yourself out bucko are the main take aways.
Vic Berger does some great parody videos of him."
There's a lot more to him than that from what I've read. It's more about meeting life head - on - with regard to your health, your friendships, relationships, meaningful work, integrity, honesty etc. A lot of men have been helped by his books. It might seem like basic advice but it's amazing how much if a gap this is in a lot of men's lives. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities.
He's definitely a conservative - but I don't see anything necessarily wrong with that or worthy of negative judgement...in my book, anyone that offers good practical advice to people who feel they need it is doing them and humanity a service. What could be wrong with some men taking a good look in the mirror and cleaning up their act and taking life on instead of hiding from it? That's my main take-away from Peterson. I don't care if he is making money off it as long as he is helping some men get better. "
Indeed, there are some points of his that I agree with; particularly on personal responsibility and accountability. I don't find his "masculinity in crisis" rhetoric all that compelling. The only masculinity in crisis is the insecure, conservative leaning views that men should be men, and women should be brood mares. I'm happy to see that fall by the wayside.
Plus, he does talk some utter waffle. |
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"Peterson is full of shite.
Not so - he makes some good points but he's blind to a lot of things too.
As soon as he took Prager U's money, he lost all credibility in my eyes. He's a hack. Talks in grossly convulated terms and beneath it all, he's a right wing conservative who blames everything on postmodernism.
Good grift though. He's making plenty of money feeding on men's insecurities.
10,000 in 3Arena last week
Jordan "the broken clock" Peterson
Does he have any solutions? Offer any positive vision or outcomes? What did those 10,000 men leave with?"
A sense of entitlement. |
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I personally don't think Masculinity is in decline.Most have come to terms with the fact that Women are our equal. I had the opportunity of a uni education but preferred to go straight into a job. Most men are secure in their own Masculinity. We are still a long way off accepting that women are entitled to same pay as men.We have 2 men and 2 women in our office, all doing the same job and on same pay..
In the 60s when my parents got married, my mum had to give up her council job , she was classed as retiring!! |
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I would say that women consider being better educated is a way of levelling up an uneven playing field. All wages have fallen since the 60/70s. Addiction and suicide are tragically not a modern phenomenon.
Some men definitely need to adjust to change but being a man in this world is still definitely more advantageous. Regrettably. |
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I read the review of this book in the Culture section of the Sunday Times. It highlights the inevitability of how females are catching up and surpassing men in so many ways. Society is always developing/progressing and never stays static and men have to become more adaptable. The progress that women have made in the last 20/30 years will lead to a more balanced gender equality society/world and rightly so |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I read the review of this book in the Culture section of the Sunday Times. It highlights the inevitability of how females are catching up and surpassing men in so many ways. Society is always developing/progressing and never stays static and men have to become more adaptable. The progress that women have made in the last 20/30 years will lead to a more balanced gender equality society/world and rightly so"
And, JP denies that the gender pay gap is even a thing (those damned Cultural Marxists again)...and women should stick to "agreeable" professions.  |
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By *asual777 OP Man
over a year ago
i travel all over |
I like the premise that the author doesn’t equate more equality with a crisis in masculinity . This is not a zero sums game and the sexes being pitted against one another . You can promote an equal society whilst being aware of vulnerable males within it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I like the premise that the author doesn’t equate more equality with a crisis in masculinity . This is not a zero sums game and the sexes being pitted against one another . You can promote an equal society whilst being aware of vulnerable males within it "
Wouldn't an equal society take care of vulnerable males anyway though? Alot of what's covered in the OP I think could be classified more as a class and poverty divide issue than any targeting masculinity
What are your thoughts on this Casual, do you think there is a masculinity crisis and in what way? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Your thoughts about whether Masculinity is in crisis are much appreciated !
'Masculinity' is just a social construct. Its flexible.
The crisis is for humanity in general in my opinion Casual.
We are living in societies actually unfit for human habitation - both socially, and environmentally. The number of people on anti-depressants or struggling unmedicated with stress burnout anxiety and depression would tell us that.
In general we are so far from how we were naturally designed to be and we dont even realise it...
"
I couldn't agree more. We are trying to resolve serious issues whilst ignoring the actual problems that causes them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I couldn't agree more. We are trying to resolve serious issues whilst ignoring the actual problems that causes them. "
Absolutely...so many people find it impossible to get a foothold in life now. It's become totally unaffordable for many now - even leaving aside having kids etc. |
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By *asual777 OP Man
over a year ago
i travel all over |
"I like the premise that the author doesn’t equate more equality with a crisis in masculinity . This is not a zero sums game and the sexes being pitted against one another . You can promote an equal society whilst being aware of vulnerable males within it
Wouldn't an equal society take care of vulnerable males anyway though? Alot of what's covered in the OP I think could be classified more as a class and poverty divide issue than any targeting masculinity
What are your thoughts on this Casual, do you think there is a masculinity crisis and in what way?"
I think we are in a transition phase between the traditional bread winning big boys don’t cry blah blah and stay at home dads , seeking support with problems etc being completely normalised and accepted . We will get there , but some men get lost along the way … |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I like the premise that the author doesn’t equate more equality with a crisis in masculinity . This is not a zero sums game and the sexes being pitted against one another . You can promote an equal society whilst being aware of vulnerable males within it "
It sounds like an interesting read. I'm definitely gonna give it a look over  |
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